“I Never Thought a 20-Week Abortion Ban Would Impact Me” with Megan Kling

Megan Kling: I never thought I would choose abortion, and Sam and I, my husband, had a very hard time even utilizing the word abortion when we terminated a pregnancy for medical reasons. And so that is the whole very reason I'm sharing this because what I've come to learn is that anyone that can become pregnant, or if you love someone that can become pregnant, an abortion restriction can affect you no matter how you feel on that topic. It could affect anyone.

Jen Kamel: I don't think people understand that when we have abortion legislation, that impacts any termination for any reason, including those that are medically indicated like yours. It's not like it's a separate box that's checked. It's all considered a termination, which termination is the language that we use, but, in medical circles, on the forms, it is an abortion.

Megan Kling: Correct.

When I had a conversation with the nurse in Rochester at the Mayo Hospital, she brought up to me the fact that I should call my insurance policy to find out if they will cover my induction at the hospital because it's not uncommon for insurance companies to specifically not cover abortion care, and that is what I was going there to get.

Jen Kamel: I had no idea that was even a thing. And again, I think it's so important to clarify your abortion was medically indicated, and yet there are insurance companies who will not cover medically indicated abortions 'cause it is all legally the same thing.

Megan Kling: I just knew that I had to find some good in this really sad thing that happened to me and I was going to do my part to help others understand that abortion isn't always what they think it is, and this is how it can affect an everyday Midwest mom who never thought they would need to choose an abortion. And so I did it.

I decided I was going to free myself of the judgment. I was going to free myself of any inkling of shame that I had and I was going to speak up. I needed to. I could not be quiet.

Jen Kamel: Hello, hello, and welcome to The VBAC Facts® Podcast. I'm Jen Kamel, VBAC Facts® founder. And since 2007, our focus has been to provide accurate and objective information on vaginal birth after cesarean and repeat cesarean to parents, professionals, policymakers, and the court so all decisions can be informed, ethical, and just.

And before I bring today's guest on, I want to ask you a quick favor. Would you please subscribe or follow this podcast? If you do this, I promise to continue to bring you evidence-based conversations on vaginal birth after cesarean, including the sometimes shocking medical evidence, breathtaking birth stories, inspiring advocacy victories, and sobering legal cases. And while you're there, leave us a five star rating and a quick review, even if it's just one sentence.

Seeking Guests: Level 1 Hospitals That Offer VBAC

Jen Kamel: Now if you have a question or comment about a prior episode or you have a topic you'd like to discuss, perhaps you'd like to come on the podcast and share your story, go to VBACfacts.com/podcast.

I am especially seeking stories from level one hospitals who offer VBAC. I know you're out there. I have talked to you. I've also seen the medical research in which your outcomes have been featured, and I want to share your story with the world.

I want people to see that this is happening because there are so many clinicians who really believe that facilities like yours, level one facilities in the US are not, quote, allowed to offer VBAC. The evidence is out there, I keep on sharing it, but your story would be powerful. If this describes you, go to VBACfacts.com/podcast and let me know.

Meet Megan!

Jen Kamel: Today our guest is Megan Kling. Megan is a 34-year-old Wisconsin mom with a career in agriculture. Now married nine years, she and her husband Sam have two daughters at home, Elma three and Greta five. Megan has become an avid maternal health advocate by speaking out about her own devastating pregnancy complications she experienced while trying to complete her family with a third child.

She believes all women deserve access to quality maternal healthcare without political barriers. I'm so excited to share her story with you. Welcome Megan.

Megan Kling: Thanks for having me, Jen.

Jen Kamel: You know, you shared right before we hit record, what was happening at your house this morning. You want to let everyone in?

Megan Kling: Yeah, so I had my local news channel eight come to my home and they did an interview with me on the same story we're talking about today. And they are going to air it as a special to remember the three year anniversary of Roe v. Wade overturning.

Jen Kamel: Wow. I cannot believe it's already been three years. You know, when Roe versus Wade overturned, did you, in your wildest dreams, have any idea that here you would be talking about your own termination experience?

Megan Kling: Uh, no, absolutely not. I mean, I never thought that I would be in a position to choose abortion.

Why Share Her Story

Jen Kamel: Can you share with us why you wanted to come in and share your story? Why is it important for you to share this incredibly intimate, personal medical decision upon which so many people have so many strong feelings?

Megan Kling: There's a couple reasons that I chose to share my story publicly. The first one was to manage through my own grief and my own anger. Losing two babies the way that I did, I couldn't have that just be a sad experience. I needed to find something good to do with those feelings and I needed to do something good, um, somewhat to create a legacy for my babies in a certain way.

So speaking out, I used it to really, for me to process through taking a little power back and finding my voice. And then the second reason is I'm a mom of two daughters, and I don't ever want them to feel the shame that I had to feel when I crossed state lines to do what was right for me in the seek of medical care in my situation.

And so in a way, I feel like it's my job as a mom to do my part in helping build awareness and the numerous complications that can occur during pregnancy.

If You Can Become Pregnant, Abortion Restrictions Can Impact You

Jen Kamel: You know, and I'm sure there's so many people who are listening right now who are like, I'm going to turn this off. I don't need to hear about this, what would you say to that person?

Megan Kling: I would say to them that I was an individual that never thought I would choose abortion, and Sam and I, my husband, had a very hard time even utilizing the word abortion when we terminated a pregnancy for medical reasons. And so that is the whole very reason I'm sharing this because what I've come to learn is that anyone that can become pregnant, or if you love someone that can become pregnant, an abortion restriction can affect you no matter how you feel on that topic. It could affect anyone.

Jen Kamel: And I think one of the words you used there was so key: it was medically indicated. Because I don't think people understand that when we have abortion legislation, that impacts any termination for any reason, including those that are medically indicated like yours. It's not like it's a separate box that's checked. It's all considered a termination, which termination is the language that we use, but, in medical circles, on the forms, it is an abortion.

Megan Kling: Correct.

Jen Kamel: So one of the things that I thought was interesting when you and I were chatting about doing this interview is that you specifically wanted to come on VBAC Facts® and talk about your experience because you view this platform, VBAC Facts®, as nonpolitical, which struck me as almost funny because just today I have people who are saying, I'm unfollowing you because you are turning VBAC into a political issue. Do you have thoughts on that?

Megan Kling: Well, I'll share from my point of view, I publicly started sharing my story in spring of 2024, and that was a huge election year. So I was contacted by the Biden Harris campaign by Senator Tammy Baldwin, by the Democratic Party in many ways, to share my story in favor of their candidate.

And so when I look at you, Jen, you are not affiliated with the Democratic Party. So when I think of a political platform, you are very different than the ones that I was pursued to be on last year.

What I've learned about your platform, Jen, is you are trying to provide factual information based on science. To help women advocate for the healthcare that is right for themselves, so they are able to make informed decisions about their healthcare and their birth, and I don't understand how anyone can view that as political.

Jen Kamel: I completely agree with you because one of the things that we talk about is how our objective is to ensure that everyone has access to evidence-based and respectful healthcare. And when I say everyone, that means everyone.

Even people who I might differ from politically. I still think that you have the right to be treated with dignity and respect. To be provided with evidence-based care. Provided with options. So that to me, is something that is unilaterally applicable to every single person listening to this podcast, as well as every single person who can get pregnant.

So that is our objective and some people have some challenges with that. And you know, all we can do is show up and do the work that we do. And if people decide they want to peace out because they disagree with something, then that is their choice. But we will always be here to be advocating for everyone to have the right of informed consent and to make their own medical decisions.

Can you tell us, Megan, when did you decide to start a family and what did that birth look like?

First Pregnancy and Cesarean

Megan Kling: Yeah, so my husband and I were married in 2016 and by 2019, we were due with our first child. She was an October due date or a Halloween due date actually.

Jen Kamel: Spooky.

Megan Kling: Yeah. And I have to tell you, Jen, I was one of the lucky ones. I did not have very many harsh pregnancy symptoms. Like it was the most boring vanilla normal pregnancy.

My water broke, four days before my due date. I had planned for a vaginal delivery, but was willing to kind of go with the flow. 'cause as a first time mom, you don't really know what to expect. Water broke at home at 10:00 AM checked into my local rural hospital. Labored really well all day long. Continue to progress.

By 8:00 PM I was dilated to eight centimeters and the nurses were excited and encouraging me because they thought I was going to have that baby before midnight. And when I hit eight centimeters and I started to feel nauseous, I started to get scared, right? And so I asked for an epidural and I was able to rest and relax through the night.

But unfortunately, my contraction slowed and I never progressed beyond eight centimeters. And so by the next morning. I had the tough conversation with my doctor that my water had been broken for almost 24 hours. They have no idea why I wasn't progressing further, and they suggested I agree to a cesarean. So there was no emergency, but I did agree and we had a healthy seven pound baby girl who we named Greta on October 28th, 2019.

No Mention of VBAC or Increased Risks After Cesarean

Jen Kamel: And so after you had the C-section, did anyone say, okay, well next time you can have a VBAC, or here's some risks that have now increased because you've had a C-section.

Megan Kling: No, I would say there was no conversation about what that next birth would look like at that point.

Jen Kamel: And so what was your understanding about your options?

Megan Kling: I think I was pretty naive. I had set in my mind that I was going to have a vaginal delivery, and I was devastated and disappointed that it didn't happen with my first child, but I was in the back of my head pretty determined, like, it's okay. I want to have three children. I got another shot at this, right, was my attitude, and I can't say I felt the need to ask questions because I just assumed why wouldn't that be an accessible option for me?

Pregnant Again, But Rural Hospital Says, "No VBACs"

Jen Kamel: Yeah. And so when you got pregnant with baby number two, how did that play out?

Megan Kling: So I got pregnant with baby number two, about two years later. And I, again, had healthy, normal pregnancy. Had a conversation with my doctor at my local rural hospital and came to understand that they do not offer VBACs because they are a small hospital and they do not have 24 hour care. And because there is risk of uterine rupture during a VBAC, they do not want me to labor there.

So the conversation then led to where do you want to do shared care? Because the closest large hospital that would support VBAC was about an hour drive from my home.

So I agreed to do a majority of all prenatal care locally, and the plan was to just have two or three third trimester appointments at the larger hospital in La Crosse, Wisconsin. And then deliver there hopefully naturally this time.

Jen Kamel: So this was the same hospital that you had your first child at?

Megan Kling: Correct. Correct.

Jen Kamel: And did it strike you as odd that they supported your first vaginal birth or your planned vaginal birth at that facility? I mean, were you aware that there could have been a need for an emergency C-section during that first labor?

Megan Kling: Um, to be honest, Jen, I don't think I thought about it that hard at, at, at that time.

Jen Kamel: Yeah. Yeah. 'cause I think it's interesting when rural hospitals that attend vaginal births, in which they need to be prepared for emergency surgeries because any birth, whether it's a vaginal birth, a C-section birth, can result in some sort of emergency, whether that's requiring an emergency C-section or requiring more blood than, say a rural hospital would have a hand, requiring different subspecialties to manage complications.

And so I think it's interesting when they say, we can safely attend your planned vaginal birth. But your planned vaginal birth after cesarean, now somehow the risks are different and we are unable to attend that birth.

And it's kind of ironic that you shared this because at the very beginning of the podcast I talked about how I am seeking for level one facilities who support VBAC to come on the podcast and share their story so that way not only do clinicians across the country and the world know that that's happening, but other level one facilities who may not offer VBAC can see how it's possible and how they can augment their informed consent process. How they can augment their staffing, prepare, as they are obligated to do, for inevitable emergencies that they will need to manage.

So when this was communicated to you, it was said, well, there is this increased risk and therefore you can't labor here. Is that my understanding?

Megan Kling: Correct.

Jen Kamel: So you planned this care that you were going to do your prenatal care locally, you were going to deliver at the larger hospital. So when you went into labor, how did that play out?

VBAC Calculator Says 38%

Megan Kling: Well, first off, I'd like to say that the larger hospital, although they accept VBAC patients, in my experience, they were not very supportive of them. And so the two prenatal appointments I had there with two separate doctors, proceeded to tell me that my chance of a successful VBAC were only 38%, according to the VBAC calculator.

I was not allowed to have a midwife attend my birth. They would not support me going beyond my due date. And they would not induce me because according to them, induction would further increase my risk of uterine rupture.

And I can't tell you in what words they said it, but the way they talked to me made me feel like they were trying to tell me, you might as well just schedule a C-section because you're not going to be able to do that. Right.

And so I left those appointments in tears. And for the first time I was feeling doubt, right? Like the, do these doctors know something I don't? Because my local OB said there's no reason why I shouldn't be able to try for a VBAC, right? But yet I've got these doctors telling me that you're probably not going to be able to do this. Right? And that made me really mad.

Free VBAC Resources

Jen Kamel: If you want to learn more about VBAC, the very first step is to download one of our free resources.

Not only will it give you an immediate nugget of clarity, but it will also subscribe you to our email list where you will get a slow, regular drop of facts from me, as well as updates on future VBAC Facts® events, perhaps even in your community. So where should you start?

If you want to debunk the top five uterine rupture myths, go to VBACfacts.com/report.

If you're planning a VBAC and you want to download our VBAC planning checklist, go to VBACfacts.com/checklist.

And if you would like to debunk the three most persistent myths that I see again and again and again using the American College of OBGYN's VBAC guidelines, then go to VBACfacts.com/handout.

I can't wait to support you in your VBAC education.

"...I Guess We'll Let You Labor Anyway"

Megan Kling: But, I was 38 weeks and one day my water broke at 10:00 AM we made our way to the hospital. I had a different doctor, who never met me before, check me. I was four centimeters dilated and in active labor. And I remember him looking at me with the stern look on his face saying, "I see the other doctors have already laid out your low chance of success for a VBAC, but I guess we'll let you labor anyway."

And that comment made me infuriated Jen. I, in that moment, I was more determined to prove him wrong than I had ever been determined before. I had checked into the hospital at 1230. Before four o'clock, my second daughter was born naturally with no tearing, only nitrous oxide during pushing, and I had a second healthy seven pound baby girl with no complications, and I successfully proved that I was able to have a vaginal birth.

Jen Kamel: You know, there are so many things I want to say about this. One, did anyone have any sort of deeper conversation about what that VBAC calculator statistic meant?

Megan Kling: No, it just felt to me that they were using that to try to convince me to just schedule a c-section. I even remember one of the doctors, and it must have been maybe my 36 week checkup, and this man who never met me before told me that, I should maybe look at losing a couple pounds. And I had gained the normal like 20 to 25 pounds during pregnancy, the same as I did with my prior pregnancy.

And I'm looking at him like, are you seriously saying those words to me? Right now, I'm 36 weeks pregnant with a daughter at home, and I just, I could not believe the attitude.

Jen Kamel: And so after you had your baby, what was the response? Did you ever have a chance to circle back with any of those OBs and what was their response to you holding your daughter there and not needing surgery to birth her?

Megan Kling: Of course not. There was shift change, so no doctor that saw me prior to having that baby was there. After I had her, and on those natural hormones with no interference of pain medicine. Three hours after having that baby Jen, I felt like I could conquer the world. That was the most powerful feeling I have ever experienced, and I was so ready to get the hell out of that hospital and take my baby home.

Jen Kamel: You know, I have to tell you, I felt the exact same way after my VBAC. I just felt like, wow, in comparison to my C-section, like I can do anything. I can do anything. Yeah, it's an incredible feeling. Absolutely incredible. So you came home with your second little baby girl and now you are thinking, huh, maybe we want a third child. So tell us about that third pregnancy.

Third Pregnancy, Returns to Rural Hospital for Second VBAC

Megan Kling: Yeah, so my husband Sam, and I always envisioned having three children. And so about 15 months after having my second child, I was pregnant again. It was a little sooner than I had planned, but my husband assured me we always wanted three children, it's going to be fine, we'll figure it out. Right?

And so off we were, and I had no reason to think that this pregnancy would be any different than my prior two. And now I knew I could have a VBAC. I had so much confidence I could do it again. I was determined not to return to that large hospital again where I was treated like a number.

What Happens If I Decline a Cesarean?

Megan Kling: And so this time around I found a different doctor at my local rural hospital. And at that 12 week checkup, I had a conversation with her and I, with tears in my eyes, expressed to her how I felt I was treated when I pursued my VBAC elsewhere. And I made it clear that I was not going to return there, and that I felt safest and most comfortable, and most importantly heard here at my local hospital.

And so I understand there's a VBAC policy. I understand there's some risks. I still want to birth here. And I just started asking her questions because of course she can't give me permission to go against the policy. But I asked her, what happens if I just show up when I'm eight centimeters dilated?

And her response was, well, we would typically prep you for cesarean. And I said, and what if I deny that cesarean because it's not medically necessary? And she said, well, they would probably recommend a transfer you. And I responded, I said, and what happens when I refuse that transfer? And she smiled. And she looked at me and we became connected in a way that I hope everyone can find connection with a doctor because she heard me.

Jen Kamel: Yeah.

Megan Kling: from there on out, we had an agreeance that as long as I understood my patient rights and I was willing to speak up for them, she would be there for my birth and she would be there to support me.

Jen Kamel: I love that. And that is such a great script right there for people to have that exact same conversation with their provider "and what if this, and what if this and what if this" to really just walk down that road and just be very clear: ultimately it is your right, regardless of hospital policy.

Patients Are Not Obligated To Follow Hospital Policy

Jen Kamel: This is something that I really want providers and parents to hear, providers are obligated to follow that policy, patients are not, that hospital policy does not apply to you, it applies to the provider.

So the provider can say, "well, this is our policy and also you don't have to follow it." So that is something that is so important for parents to understand. And so how did you get to that level of understanding about what your rights were in the hospital?

Megan Kling: Oh, honestly, Jen, I am a challenger by nature and I was just listening to my own inner instincts of what I wanted to do, and I decided to vocalize 'em and just decided to start challenging.

Jen Kamel: Okay. So you had this agreement with this doctor. You're 12 weeks pregnant. What happens then?

There Is Something Very Wrong

Megan Kling: Normal, healthy pregnancy, just like the two before. And then it came time to the 20 week ultrasound, which was at my local rural hospital like it always was. And I was actually 21 weeks and some odd days, so I was a little past 20 weeks per se.

And they called me back into my doctor's office and my doctor looked at me and she immediately said something is very wrong, that with our ultrasound we cannot get good enough images but there is extremely low levels of amniotic fluid and it's really bad. And I could see by the look in her face that there's a chance I might lose this baby.

Jen Kamel: So did she explain what low amniotic fluid meant, or at what point did you discover that there were additional issues with this pregnancy?

Megan Kling: So I think I was too much in shock to ask very many questions. I think I could tell from the look on her face how bad it was, and I think I was terrified to truly know how bad it was. And instinctually, if I could have stood up and pushed that baby off of my belly, I would have, because I was just flat out in self-preservation mode, terrified of whatever was going to happen next.

Next, she then proceeded to tell me that in order to get a clear diagnosis, I'd need to meet with maternal fetal medicine. And so we talked through where I would like her to put the referrals in.

And locally, there's really only two larger hospitals. One about an hour to the north in Eau Claire, and then again an hour south to La Crosse. And then so she put referrals into those two hospitals.

But she also asked me if I would like a referral to Rochester, Minnesota, to the Mayo Hospital there, because that is about a two hour drive from us. And in my mind, I'm thinking if my baby needs any type of surgery, that is the place I want to be is Rochester, Minnesota. So I said, yes, put the referrals in everywhere.

And then it was the waiting game to see where we could get, how soon we could get in. So this news came to me on a Monday. The soonest we could get in was that same week Thursday in La Crosse.

Jen Kamel: Okay. And how many weeks gestation were you at this point? Were you already 20 weeks or were you surpassed 20 weeks?

Megan Kling: So by that Thursday, I was 22 weeks in one day, I believe.

Jen Kamel: Okay. Okay.

The Diagnosis

Megan Kling: So my husband and I went to La Crosse and they did a higher level ultrasound. Brought us into the room with the maternal fetal medicine doctor and the nurse, and they proceeded to tell us that our baby had bilateral renal agenesis.

And what that means is our baby developed without kidneys and without a bladder. He also had brain and heart abnormalities.

Jen Kamel: Hmm.

Megan Kling: So without the urinary tract operating, that was the reason there was no amniotic fluid because amniotic fluid is primarily made up of the baby's urine by the second trimester.

And so with that condition for babies that go to term or women that carry those babies, those babies are also born with bone abnormalities. So without amniotic fluid, there's no protection for your baby.

There's limited room for the baby to move, and their bones are forced to bend as they grow from the pressure the mother's body is putting on that bone.

And so I am soaking in all of this information in tears. And my husband's sitting next to me in tears, and we had discussed what we were going to do if we got this horrible news that our baby was non-viable because what we were told is this condition will lead to our baby either dying in utero or they will live an hour or two after giving birth. It is a hundred percent fatal.

And so I immediately said, what do we do next? And the doctor proceeded to tell me that, well, I could carry it if I wanted to. And I believe I was the one that cut her off and said, no, that I cannot. I will not carry a baby another four months knowing that baby is going to die. Okay. That was not in the best interest of my physical health. It was not in the best interest of my mental health.

"What Are The Abortion Laws In Wisconsin?"

Megan Kling: And I had, I still had a career and two little girls that I needed to go back home to. And so I asked her, I said, what are our options to end this pregnancy? She immediately turned to the nurse, because this doctor happened to be a traveling doctor out of California, and her question to the nurse was, where are the laws at in Wisconsin?

Jen Kamel: Wow.

Megan Kling: That nurse proceeded to tell me that there was nothing they could do for me. The only thing they could offer me was a referral to their clinic across the border in Minnesota. And when I asked, if I could be induced there to deliver my baby, the answer was no. The only option was a surgical abortion there. And I had made it clear

Jen Kamel: site,

Megan Kling: the referral site. Yes. And so I had made it clear that, you know, I felt like I was still this baby's mom and the right way for me to end the pregnancy was to be induced and deliver that baby, to be the one that brings that baby into the world and to ... you know, no judgment, any woman in this scenario, these choices don't feel like a choice at all.

No matter what, you are going to end up holding a cold baby, and that is the reality. And so everyone should be able to move forward in whatever choice feels best for them in that situation.

Luckily, we had kept the appointment in Rochester, Minnesota and that was a full week later. That was seven days from the day we got that, had that appointment in La Crosse.

I worked with my local OB provider at my local rural hospital, and she was the one that helped coordinate with Rochester to make sure they understood the confirmed diagnosis and helped set up the opportunity for me to have an induction following the appointment they had scheduled.

Jen Kamel: Oh good. So you were able to do it all at one time rather than having to have an appointment and then drive two hours home and then a couple days later, drive two hours back. Do you want to share what that delivery was like?

Megan Kling: Yeah, so at that point I was 23 weeks pregnant and. They gave me the ultrasound. We wanted a second opinion. They confirmed the diagnosis without a doubt and they then moved me to a labor and delivery room where they were going to proceed to induce me.

For that induction, I was given Cytotec and mifepristone. And that was about eight o'clock at night. And about 11 hours later, by 7:00 AM the next morning, I delivered our first son, who we named Nolan.

And he was 12 inches and one pound. The doctors prepared us for the possibility of him being born alive, and if that were the case, we agreed to comfort care. And so when he was born, he was born with a beating heart. And so they cleaned him up and they put him on my chest and we covered him up with a heating blanket. And my husband and I were able to hold him for about an hour until he passed away in our arms.

"Born Alive From Botched Abortions"

Jen Kamel: Megan, that is just absolutely heartbreaking. And I actually needed to take a break there because I started really crying. I mean, I'm a mother of two children. I cannot imagine what that experience was like to have your much wanted and loved baby boy, die in your arms and know that there was no other alternative for him.

As you're talking, of course, I'm thinking about what the counter argument that people could have and wanting us to have this moment to address those.

Megan Kling: Well, I'm going to answer to the political argument that babies who are born alive are born from botched abortions and are set aside to die, as some of the quotes I've heard politicians talk about.

And I can't tell you, Jen, how angry that makes me feel. For them to take a situation like mine, and villainize me and my very compassionate medical care team. Because if my doctors would've provided our son with life-saving measures, it would've been inhumane to prolong his suffering. And so we gave my son the care that we felt was most compassionate to him and to us. And he was very much loved.

Pregnancy Is Too Complex To Legislate

Jen Kamel: Yeah. You know, this also makes me think about the recent case of the woman who became brain dead, I think at like nine weeks pregnant. And I believe as of the date of this recording, that her body is still being maintained in order to house this fetus.

Do you have any thoughts about that and any sort of parallels that could be found between your care and this situation?

Megan Kling: I've just come to learn that pregnancy is too complex to legislate. Every situation is different, and it should only be up to the woman, her family, in the privacy of her doctor's office to choose what happens next.

Jen Kamel: Agreed. A thousand percent agreed.

How She Coped With Her Son's Passing

Jen Kamel: So your sweet baby boy passed, and what was that like for you emotionally in the months and weeks afterwards? How did you cope? What do you wish you knew?

Megan Kling: Well, I breastfed both my daughters and so coming home without a baby and having my milk come in was probably the hardest on me from a physical standpoint.

The day we met and lost our son was the most traumatic thing that my husband and I have ever experienced, and I knew I needed help to ensure that I processed that and worked through my grief in order to be the best mom I could for my two girls at home.

So I sought after finding a counselor that specialized in infant loss, and that made a huge difference in my ability to truly process through the trauma of that day.

Ready To Try Again

Jen Kamel: Okay. You've now had some counseling that helps you process that experience. So at what point were you thinking, I'm ready to try again? And what did that look like?

Megan Kling: When I started feeling like myself again, it took a solid five months. And I made a choice to really intentionally prioritize my own wellbeing. Not only from that mental health aspect, but just making sure I'm eating healthy and doing a better job on meal prep for my family. Taking some daily walks and just getting back to a healthy me.

And once I felt like I was there, I was determined to try again for, in order to have a pregnancy that was going to result in bringing our third baby home and making me feel like our family was complete at that point.

Pregnant With Plans to VBAC at Community Hospital

Megan Kling: So we ended up being lucky and we were able to conceive pretty quickly. By the summer of 2024, I was pregnant again with baby number four. And same plan was to have a VBAC at my rural hospital with my doctor that I trust. And pregnancy was normal. There was nothing that raised any alarm bells, like never even a high blood pressure reading. On Nolan, our last pregnancy, we did do genetic testing and there was no genetic link that caused his condition.

Jen Kamel: Hmm.

Megan Kling: And so we were hopeful it was just a fluke and that this pregnancy was going to be healthy like our first two. And we made it to that 20 week appointment. And we actually arranged for it to happen at 19 weeks to be on the earlier end.

And I remember after that ultrasound, my doctor came in and she said, Megan, I wish I could tell you everything was perfect, but your baby, we only see one kidney, but the other kidney is there and there is healthy amounts of amniotic fluid and everything else looks fine.

And I knew from my research on my son's condition. That people can live long healthy lives on one kidney. So I was okay with that. What I was terrified of is if we do further testing, could there be any other abnormalities that are foreseen? Because our son also had a brain and a heart abnormality, and so she proceeded to refer us to maternal fetal medicine again.

We went to La Crosse and it was like the shortest appointment ever. After that ultrasound, the doctor just looked at me and said, yes, we only see one kidney, but your baby's fine. Your baby's healthy. You can go home. Like we can maybe do one more in-depth checkup in about eight weeks, but right now, like, you're fine. Go home.

And we were so relieved and we started sharing more that we were pregnant 'cause up until then, I was doing my best to hide that bump because I didn't want the whole world to know in case we were to experience anything like we had before. And so we were hopeful, right? We were moving forward.

And three-ish weeks later, I started to notice that I hadn't been feeling the baby move very much. And this was the weekend right before Thanksgiving and that Sunday I was turning 23 weeks pregnant. And so I was just certain it was all in my head because talking with my counselor, she said that it is hardest up until the point in gestation of where you've lost that last baby.

Jen Kamel: Okay.

And It Happens Again

Megan Kling: So I just, I had it in my head, "it's all in my head Megan. Like the baby's fine." But I sent a message to my OB nurse, Hailey, that Sunday and said, Hey, I'm sure it's all in my head, but I need you to do a heart heartbeat reading tomorrow just to let me know my baby's fine. And she arranged for me to come in that next morning. I never even told my husband I was going in because I was certain it was just psychology messing with me, right?

And my nurse couldn't find the heartbeat, and that had never happened before. And so she called my doctor in and my doctor couldn't find the heartbeat, so they called my husband, and as he's on the way to the clinic, my nurse holds my hand through the ultrasound where the ultrasound tech is able to verify that the baby had passed away. And there's nothing on the ultrasound scan that would give any answer to why.

Jen Kamel: Wow. Wow.

Can't Access The Medications She Needs Due to Fear Surrounding Abortion Laws

Megan Kling: We go back to my doctor's office and my husband's now there by my side and we have an eerily familiar conversation about inducing at 23 weeks again. My doctor gave me two choices. She said, you can choose to keep carrying until your body naturally goes into labor by recognizing the baby's past or we can induce you.

And I was not going to risk an infection and I did not want to go home and carry that baby, which I knew was gone. And so I chose induction and she set the appointment up for the next morning.

And I asked her, I said, is the induction going to be the same as what the process was in Minnesota? And she said, yes, but I will not be giving you mifepristone.

From my last experience, knew that mifepristone plus Cytotec work best together to decrease a woman's chances of complications. The most common complication when you induce in that second trimester is retained tissue. So after you deliver that baby, if there is retained tissue, they ultimately need to do a D&C afterwards, which you can imagine adds more trauma to what you're already experiencing by losing that baby.

Jen Kamel: Yeah.

Megan Kling: So knowing this as an informed patient, now I asked her, I said, why? Why am I not going to be giving mifepristone if that is best standard of care in this situation? And her answer was simply, I don't have access to it.

And it comes to find out, there's a whole lot of hospitals in Wisconsin that have no access to mifepristone.

And so once again, I was in a situation where I was very angry at politics interfering with my maternal healthcare.

Jen Kamel: So can you tell us, can you explain very clearly why would they not have the mifepristone? What was prohibiting them or what made them feel like they couldn't have that?

Megan Kling: I don't know that I can explain this exactly, but what I know is mifepristone is highly restricted and regulated and so I'm not sure if it's the doctor or the hospital that has to apply for the ability to provide it. But what I know is mifepristone is not illegal in Wisconsin, but because of the political state we are in around abortion care, hospitals want to avoid legalities and liability at all costs. So because mifepristone is known as the abortion drug, they are just choosing not to carry it and not to provide it for their patients. Even in situations of miscarriage or stillbirth like I experienced.

"If I Had Not Experienced This, I Would've Never Known To Ask This Question"

Jen Kamel: And it's your understanding that having mifepristone on hand decreases the rate of complications in the setting of miscarriage or an early induction like yours. So how can hospitals justify not having this medication that improves outcomes for women, for which any woman who can get pregnant could experience?

Megan Kling: I don't think they're put in a position to have to justify it, is the problem. I don't think anyone is truly raising the issue to point out, because if I had not experienced the loss in Minnesota, I would've never known to even ask that question. I would not have questioned the, the drugs that I was given for that induction. I wouldn't have known.

And so I think there's many women that are given substandard of care, during infant loss and they just have no clue that they're at higher risk for complications.

Her Fourth Child's Birth

Jen Kamel: So can you tell us how did the delivery of your fourth child play out? What did that look like and where did you end up needing to go for that delivery?

Megan Kling: I was able to go to my local hospital and I had my primary doctor there to care for me that day. The induction started at 8:00 AM. I delivered that baby by four o'clock that afternoon. This time it was a third little girl and Sam and I got to hold her and say goodbye to her that evening. But we were ultimately still able to go home. And sleep in our own beds that night.

Umbilical Cord Abnormality

Megan Kling: Now when she was born, there was nothing that my doctor could see that would give any reason to why she passed away. So I did sign consent to have an autopsy done. And what that autopsy uncovered was an umbilical cord abnormality.

And so umbilical cords are to coil twice in 10 centimeters. Our baby's umbilical cord coiled seven times in 10 centimeters.

Jen Kamel: Wow.

Megan Kling: So it was hyper coiled. And then there was areas of stricture. And so when that occurs in pregnancy, babies grow normally and healthy up until around 21 weeks of gestation and then they reach a certain size where the blood flow and the nutrients cannot keep up with the rate of growth for that baby. So they typically pass shortly after 21 weeks.

That can be seen on an ultrasound, as you can imagine that coil is kinda wrapped up in that amniotic fluid. We really have no clue what causes, or what leads to, those umbilical cord abnormalities? So it really was like getting hit by lightning twice is how my doctor prescribed it. That umbilical cord abnormality had no correlation with my previous pregnancy.

Jen Kamel: Wow. And so how did the grieving process, and how did the way that you processed that birth, did it differ from Nolan's birth at all?

Megan Kling: Yeah, I mean, it is weird to say this, but losing Katie, it was easier because it was like I'd already had practiced doing this, right. Um, we had already been through so much before, it was just all too familiar to experience it again.

Jen Kamel: the fact

Megan Kling: that she died in utero and I did not have to make a choice. I did not have to leave the state for care. I did not have to hold her feeling the most helpless feeling as a parent could feel as she died in my arms, all of those factors made that less traumatic than my prior pregnancy, or my prior loss.

Why Did She Need To Leave The State?

Jen Kamel: And can you explain why did you need to leave the state for Nolan, but you were able to deliver Katie at your local rural hospital?

Megan Kling: So Nolan had a beating heart,

Jen Kamel: I see.

Megan Kling: was considered an abortion. Even though he was non-viable.

Jen Kamel: Okay. And when you delivered Katie, were you able to have access to mifepristone and Cytotec, or was that just driven by Cytotec?

Megan Kling: It was only driven by Cytotec, and I was lucky because I did not experience any complications, but the next woman would be at higher risk with only Cytotec.

Jen Kamel: Yeah. And was that process, that induction process, did it feel different at all with Nolan's with mifepristone and Cytotec versus Katie's with just Cytotec?

Megan Kling: No, it didn't feel any different. I can't tell you that the mifepristone itself added any different symptoms.

How Abortion Bans Impact Health Care For All

Jen Kamel: So in your third pregnancy, you were in Minnesota, but in this fourth pregnancy you are now in Wisconsin, which means the 20 week abortion ban could have very well impacted this hospital's perception of what drugs they should or should not have on hand in order to be in compliance with that law. Is that correct?

Megan Kling: I don't think it's 20 weeks, I think they're just outright avoiding that drug because of its association with abortion.

Jen Kamel: I see, I see.

Megan Kling: It wouldn't have mattered if I was at 12 weeks.

Jen Kamel: Yeah. Yeah. So can you tell us the difference between the actual law in Wisconsin and what it says versus how that law is interpreted and implemented in hospitals in Wisconsin?

Megan Kling: So what I've learned is hospitals will always be more restrictive than what the law allows. So Wisconsin, it's a little up for debate 'cause we got a Supreme Court that's going to soon rule on this officially. But right now the law is: abortion bans at 20 weeks gestation.

So, because my husband and I are still determined to bring home a third child, it was recommended after our fourth baby that we go have preconception counseling with maternal fetal medicine.

And they had no rhyme or reason to why we lost our babies. So all they focus the conversation on is all the extra monitoring they could offer me during my next pregnancy.

And when I asked them, I said, what is the point in all this extra monitoring and all this extra time travel and energy to check on my next pregnancy when my last two losses were not preventable, they were not treatable. So even if we would've caught things sooner, it would've not, would not have changed the outcome.

So tell me why I should be coming to see you so often in my next pregnancy. And her answer was, that way we could catch if something's wrong sooner, so you could make a choice. And so when I asked her, I said, okay, so if we'd uncover that my next pregnancy is non-viable at 13 weeks gestation, you help me? And her response is, we would refer you to a clinic or to Minnesota. That was her response to me.

Jen Kamel: Wow.

Megan Kling: And so what I heard was, you are willing to provide me healthcare. You are willing to take my money for all these extra monitoring, but when I get the worst news of my pregnancy, when I need a care provider that knows me and that I trust. You are going to turn me away when I need you the most. And I thought that was bullshit.

Want to Learn More About VBAC?

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Go to VBACfacts.com/membership now to register and avail yourself instantly to over 24 nursing contact hours worth of trainings, as well as downloadable patient handouts, grand rounds, where we review the latest research about VBAC, our expert interview series where we have a variety of professionals come in and share their knowledge with you as well as so much more. So go to VBACfacts.com/membership to learn more.

Insurance May Not Cover Abortion Care (Even When Medically Indicated)

Jen Kamel: So can you share a little bit about how insurance impacted your options when you were figuring out how to manage your non-viable pregnancy in Minnesota?

Megan Kling: Yeah, so, you know, there was a 10 day span from when we initially were queued in that something was wrong with the pregnancy to the day that we were induced. And so I had a 10 day window to process the loss of our child and how that was going to happen and how I was going to manage that, right?

And insurance was at the bottom of the list of all of the things that my mind was wrapped around in those 10 days. But when I had a conversation with the nurse in Rochester at the Mayo Hospital, she brought up to me the fact that I should call my insurance policy to find out if they will cover my induction at the hospital because it's not uncommon for insurance companies to specifically not cover abortion care, and that is what I was going there to get.

Jen Kamel: I had no idea that was even a thing. And again, I think it's so important to clarify your abortion was medically indicated, and yet there are insurance companies who will not cover medically indicated abortions 'cause it is all legally the same thing.

Megan Kling: Yeah, so, uh, I was pretty alarmed by that and so add more thing to the list to do, and so I called my insurance company, and luckily I got the nicest woman on the line and she reassured me that I had nothing to worry about, that my care would be covered by my insurance.

Now I have met other women in Wisconsin that were not so lucky, and their insurance would not cover the care they needed to terminate their non-viable pregnancies. And so when I had that conversation with the nurse on the phone, she said, "If your insurance won't cover it, and you cannot afford the out-of-pocket expense for an overnight hospital stay, plus the procedure, it is a lower cost to go to Planned Parenthood in Minneapolis or the Twin Cities."

And that right there, that comment hit me because what that told me is that if I don't have insurance policy to cover it, if I don't have access to the financials to cover a hospital bill, that's probably going to cost tens of thousands of dollars, then my choices are even more restricted on what I am able to access or do with this pregnancy.

So my choice could have very easily been taken away, to want to induce my baby in a hospital setting. And my only option might've been to go to a clinic where my, my baby would've been surgically removed from me.

The Healthcare Gap Planned Parenthood Fills

Jen Kamel: And again, did you ever imagine in a million years that you would be considering getting care from a Planned Parenthood?

Megan Kling: I mean, not abortion care, but I'll tell you, you know, I grew up in a family where we didn't have a whole lot and so I didn't have health insurance all throughout college. And so I went to my local Planned Parenthood just for my annual checkups and for birth control. I mean, I utilized Planned Parenthood for my own reproductive health. Now, did I ever imagine I need to go there for abortion care? No, I didn't.

Jen Kamel: I think that's such an important thing for people to hear. People go and get just regular, like your annual exam and birth control, at Planned Parenthood. They provide an important resource for people who might otherwise not be able to access healthcare, and especially preventative healthcare that you get through an annual exam and a pap smear.

Megan Kling: Yeah, and so just to think that you know, another woman, her only choice might be to go to that clinic. And then can you imagine having, you've got a belly at 23 weeks and you're walking in to terminate a non-viable pregnancy, and there's a good chance there could be protesters outside to shame you as you walk through those doors.

Jen Kamel: Yeah. Who don't know your story? Who make assumptions about who you are and the life you've lived?

Can You Get Pregnant? Abortion Laws Can Impact You.

Jen Kamel: In our pre-interview you referenced barriers that people don't even realize will impact them. Can you tell us more about what you meant by that?

Megan Kling: Well, Rochester, Minnesota was only two hours away from me, so although I went out of state, it was not an extreme amount of travel. Now I have met and been connected with women in the South who, in same situations as I was in, with non-viable, medically compromised pregnancies, they were forced to travel a thousand plus miles to get the care that they needed.

And if you can imagine having to get on a plane and pay for plane tickets. You need to pay for a hotel for overnight. If you have children at home, you need to be able to arrange childcare not to mention the miss work because you're going to need time to take off to recover. And so there's just all these other things where if you are in a very restrictive state like Texas or Florida, if you have money, you can access the care that you need. But if you don't have enough money, those women are carrying those babies because they have no other option. Because care is out of reach and these are everyday moms.

Jen Kamel: Yeah and does it serve the public health to have this massive financial barrier to access evidence-based care?

Megan Kling: I don't understand it.

Jen Kamel: I don't think so. Everyone should have access to pap smears and prenatal care. Everyone should have access to abortion care.

What Has All This Media Exposure Been Like?

Jen Kamel: So your story has been featured in the New York Times, the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel. And you will be featured in Christie Turlington's from Every Woman Counts upcoming documentary this summer. What has all this media exposure been like?

Megan Kling: It's been really surreal. Every time I talk to a journalist or a producer, my frame of mind is, yeah, I'll answer their questions, I'll tell 'em a little bit about my story and maybe I'll be a fit for what they're looking for, maybe I'm not. And I've had so many opportunities where they want to share my stories and every time, you know my thought is like, are you sure? Like, are you sure me? Right?

I live in a town of 400 and some people, like my story is no more worthy than any other woman who has experienced the restrictions like I have. So it's just, it's been very real and it's been very empowering to look back and see if you have a story to share and if you are passionate, you never know how far your voice can go. You just have to put yourself out there and take the risk.

Jen Kamel: Have you had people reach out to you and thank you for sharing your story.

Megan Kling: Oh yeah. I have had so much more positive feedback

Jen Kamel: Hmm.

Megan Kling: members and strangers, that trumps any very few negative comments I've received.

Agreeing To Be In A Political Ad

Jen Kamel: You also agreed to be in a political ad in Wisconsin. Can you talk a little bit about that? What was behind that decision making?

Megan Kling: So first off, I never thought I would be in a political ad. I was pretty adamant that that wouldn't happen because I did not want my story to become a soundbite for a political candidate.

But I met a woman running for Congress in my district, as a moderate Democrat. I, of course, shared my experience and my concerns around maternal healthcare. She followed up with me and of course asked me if I'd be in an ad for her. And I initially said, no, I'm not interested in doing that.

And then it was about two weeks later and I watched the June [2024] presidential debate between Donald Trump and Joe Biden, and I watched those two old men very poorly talk about abortion and it ignited a fire in me. And I just decided, this cannot represent the conversation around abortion to America right now.

And the next morning, I texted Rebecca Cook and I said, "I'm in. Let's do it." And I set my terms. I told her exactly how I wanted to be portrayed, what I was willing to say. She a hundred percent respected all of it. Looking back, I have no regrets. I was very happy with how the ad came out. I was represented very authentically, I felt.

Speaking Even When Your Voice Shakes

Jen Kamel: I can imagine that there were people in your life who had some really strong feelings about the choices that you ultimately made. Can you talk a little bit about speaking your truth, even when your voice shakes, although it sounds like your voice doesn't ever shake.

Megan Kling: I've had some practice. I mean, abortion is an extremely controversial topic and I knew that if I were to share our story and try to help people understand how legislation around abortion negatively can impact maternal healthcare, I knew certain people weren't going to like to hear it because it doesn't fit their stigma of what they believe abortion to be.

And I live in rural western Wisconsin, very conservative, lots of agriculture and I knew there'd be people in my community, maybe even my family that didn't like me sharing, although everyone for the most part, you know, understood our reasoning. There's the political factor to it.

And when I look back and I remember comments like, you know, Megan, miracles do happen, or there's power in prayer. Or, you know, you did seem to make the decision pretty quickly. The worst one, you know, I wouldn't have made that decision.

When I think back to those comments that were made to me during that period of time, they stung, right? And I felt the judgment and I felt the shame, and I just got to a point where I was not going to let those voices keep my voice silent.

I just knew that I had to find some good in this really sad thing that happened to me and I was going to do my part to help others understand that abortion isn't always what they think it is, and this is how it can affect an everyday Midwest mom who never thought they would need to choose an abortion. And so I did it.

I decided I was going to free myself of the judgment. I was going to free myself of any inkling of shame that I had, and I was going to speak up. I needed to. I could not be quiet.

Jen Kamel: So if you knew then what you know now, would you have made any different choices?

Megan Kling: Really the only choice I would've changed is I would've had a birth doula from the start for my first birth I would not have had an epidural because I truly believe that that epidural interfered with my body's own rhythm. And I wonder if I would've prevented that cesarean had I avoided it.

Listen To The Voice Screaming Inside You

Jen Kamel: What have been the biggest lessons that you've learned throughout your four births?

Megan Kling: I feel like as I've become a mother, my maternal instincts, my instincts are so strong, and I have leaned into listening to those instincts. And so when we have that little voice that is screaming inside us, we need to stop silencing it, and we need to lean into it because that voice is there to guide us and to protect ourselves, and to protect our children. And I just think we need to do a better job of not worrying about what anybody else is going to say or judge of us. I have just truly learned to follow my gut.

Jen Kamel: Yeah. You know, that reminds me of a book I read many years ago called The Gift of Fear by Gavin de Becker. I'll include it in the show notes. It is an incredible book that talks about that very thing. About how our primitive lizard part of our brain is there to 100% keep us alive.

And in doing so, our body is constantly processing information and putting together patterns and putting together scenarios and detecting danger and giving us red flags. So that instinct that we feel is colored by that lizard brain. So all these little things that your body is registering on a subconscious level: this is dangerous, you know, I'm in a dangerous situation.

So I'll include that book in the show notes because I think it's so important for women in particular to listen to that part of their brain because, getting into a whole nother topic, women can sometimes, um, we prioritize being polite. And sometimes that can put us in really tenuous situations because we're too focused on being polite and not wanting to hurt someone's feelings. And then that can put us in a situation where our needs aren't expressed or we're even in explicit danger.

So what has it been like to share such a private experience in such a public way?

Megan Kling: It makes you feel very vulnerable when you are sharing not only very private birth experiences publicly, but also very traumatic infant loss stories, right. And especially around a controversial issue. So it's been very vulnerable. Every time I partner with a journalist or a platform, there is risk on how they're going to interpret the words that you say and how they are going to write and represent you.

And so I've always tried to choose my platforms and anyone in the media I work with very carefully. But there's vulnerability because you don't know how they're going to represent you and you don't know how public or people in your community are going to react. Right?

But I will say with that vulnerability, I have found a lot of strength and empowerment from it because it truly is your way of freeing yourself from judgment.

It is your way of saying, Hey, here is my truth. And it really doesn't matter... you know what I mean? It's, it's out there for the world to see this is my truth, and it's there and there's no shame in it.

How She Has Grown

Jen Kamel: Well, and that really leads into the next question, which is, how have you grown as a result of this experience with your two daughters and then your two losses?

Megan Kling: I've grown in several ways. The first one that comes to mind is I've truly tried to prioritize my own wellbeing. As a person.

I think when I first had my first child and then two years later I had my second child, I was in on that treadmill of motherhood where you are working a full-time job, you know, in your early thirties trying to progress your career. You are primary caregiver of taking care of the children. You're managing household schedules. It's primarily your job to keep up with the household responsibilities.

And you are just hit with a magnitude of expectations of being able to do it all and do it all without complaining. Right?

And it is exhausting sometimes because I think we often lose ourselves. And lose feeling like us when we're in the heat of that.

And so as I lost my two babies and I went through therapy, thought a lot about the role model I want to be for my girls. And I thought a lot about how do I be the best mom I can be for them? And the only way to do that is to make sure I'm taking care of myself too.

And so I've made choices to intentionally make sure I'm keeping myself healthy. I'm checking in with myself, and even though I can do it all, I don't have to.

Advice For Women Pregnant With A Non-Viable Pregnancy

Jen Kamel: What are your biggest tips for anyone who realizes that they are pregnant with a non-viable baby and sees themselves facing the option of carrying that baby to term or a termination?

Megan Kling: God, only tip is for them to look inside and do what feels right for them. And once they figure out what feels right for them, the resources and the support system to help you move forward with whatever care feels right for you. And really try not to feel shame about it at all. just do what's right for you and advocate for it. 'cause it's an impossible situation to be thrown in and there is no right answer.

What She Wishes She Knew At The Beginning

Jen Kamel: Is there anything you wish you knew at the beginning of all this?

Megan Kling: I, the only thing that comes to mind is I wish I would've been a little more aware of all the numerous pregnancy complications that can occur, and I wish I would've just. I was always more pro-choice, but I wish I would've had a little less judgment and a little more compassion to truly understand.

What I understand now is that you never know what somebody is going through behind closed doors. Everyone has a story you know nothing about, and it is nobody's place to judge until you've walked in their shoes. So I just, I think these experiences have made me a better human being to have a little more compassion and empathy for, for others.

Jen Kamel: I think that is a tremendous message, compassion, empathy, and, if I could also add, providing space for everyone to make the best decision for themselves and realize that that might be different than the decision you make, and that's okay. We each should have the right to make these decisions. And what other people decide or what other people would do is 100% their business.

Megan Kling: Exactly.

The Ripple Effect Of Her Pregnancies

Jen Kamel: Yeah. How do your pregnancies impact you to this day?

Megan Kling: I feel like they've made me a stronger woman.

I look back and, you know, I remember kicking ass in my job while being like eight, nine months pregnant. Right? And I work in agronomy. It's very male dominated. And I just, you know, when you look back and think about it, like not only can I do well in my job, I can create life, right? I can give birth.

And when you start to look at it that way, women are very powerful. And I just think we can accomplish so much more. If we can just try to harness a little bit more of that power within ourselves. And so I think it's really humanized me in certain ways and it's given me the confidence to pave my own way and, be the best role model I can for my girls.

How She Engages With Healthcare Now

Jen Kamel: Have your pregnancies impacted or changed how you interact with healthcare at all?

Megan Kling: Oh yeah. What I have learned is doctors don't know everything. And sometimes, sometimes there's an arrogance factor where they think they know certain things, and I am now very quick to not listen to a doctor if I don't trust them. I look at healthcare and seeing doctors much more from a consumer lens is that if I don't feel heard, if I don't trust you, if you are not having open, educated conversations with me and talking to me like a human being, then I'm not going to come see you again. And so I've come to have a lot more peace and confidence with that.

Jen's Experience With Pelvic Prolapse Misinformation

Jen Kamel: I know for myself, even when I trust a provider, there's still a part of me that's like, is that really true? And just recently, I would love to share this, I was diagnosed with a grade one pelvic prolapse. And my GYN, who I respect, who is wonderful, told me there's nothing you can do about this. This is just what happens when people get old.

And I actually sought out a pelvic floor physical therapist who said that statement is absolutely not evidence-based. We know from the guidelines that we are able to correct prolapse up to one grade, and so since I have a grade one, I can go all the way back to normal. So now I'm in the midst of a 12 week program to heal my pelvic floor. And had I just listened to what my OB said and just blindly believed him, my prolapse could have very well progressed to a point where it was not reversible without surgery.

So again, I think it is so important for us to always remember, we are the ones who are ultimately responsible for our healthcare. We are the number one people who can advocate on our own behalf. And if you just accept what other people say without doing a little bit of extra research, you could find yourself in a situation where you need a surgical solution rather than just say physical therapy.

And I want to give a plug to pelvic floor physiotherapist, Dr. Sinead Dufour. I'll include her information in the show notes. She's incredible. We actually met each other at the WARM conference. We both spoke there this past April 2025, and I was so impressed with her and she does not disappoint. So if you need someone, that's who I think you should call, um. I'd love to get back to your story.

What's the most important thing that you want people to hear from your story? What's the most important takeaway?

Abortion Bans Do Not Care About The Life Of The Mother

Megan Kling: The most important takeaway is that abortion bans can affect anyone anywhere at any time and any bans on abortion do not care about the life of the mother.

Jen Kamel: Can you tell us more about that? Because there are, there's a lot of controversy, I think it's in Idaho as well as Texas because they claim to have inclusion for life of the mother. Is that something that you feel like you can speak on?

Megan Kling: Oh yeah. I've connected with women across the country that have been in situations where they needed abortion care for their own self in emergency situations. And they were denied because there is no clarification of how sick a woman needs to be for her life to be at risk.

And so once again, hospitals are always going to pay more attention to their lawyers and attorneys and be extra careful of being held liable of any litigation. So they, they are going to be cautious.

And so can you imagine going into the hospital when your water has broken at, let's say 22 weeks, baby is non-viable. You are now at a risk of infection. But if that baby, his heart is still beating your doctor cannot help you. And you are at further risk of infection if you decide to travel out of state. So how long does that doctor wait for your infection to spread before they treat you?

Jen Kamel: Yeah. How close to death do you need to get for it to now become life saving as opposed to elective?

Megan Kling: Yes. So the exceptions don't work. I met another woman, I believe it Tennessee, and she had a fatal abnormality with her baby. And although there was exceptions for specific non-viable diagnoses, her specific diagnosis wasn't included. And so just because that specific non-viable diagnosis wasn't included, they wouldn't help her because she did not meet the very listed black and white exceptions.

I met a woman in Texas was pregnant with twins. One twin nonviable, the other one healthy. And at 13 weeks, they would not give her a single abortion in order to protect her viable, healthy baby. And with that condition, she was at high risk to go into preterm labor, which would likely result in the loss of both babies. She still had to leave Texas and go to New Mexico for a singleton abortion to protect her child.

Unintended Consequences & Abortion Bans

Jen Kamel: Wow. And you know, your Tennessee story really brings up how important it is whenever policy makers are writing legislation rather than having all of these conditions where it's allowed or not allowed. Can we just include in there, trust the informed decision making of the woman? Or the pregnant person?

Because as you can see, first of all, our policymakers are not clinicians. They are not healthcare professionals. They do not know all of the various medical reasons one could need a termination. And also we have a variety of interest groups who would love to make that list as short as possible. That exception list.

And the reality is no matter how comprehensively you write that list, you're not going to capture all situations unless you say, "we are just going to leave this up to the mother," at which case you don't need abortion bans at all.

Megan Kling: Exactly.

Jen Kamel: Is there anything else you would like people to know from your story? Anything else you'd like to share?

Make Your Voice Heard

Megan Kling: The only other thing I'd like to share is before my pregnancies, I did a very poor job of following the news and reading on key issues. I did not know all the candidates on my ballot, and this has changed me. I hope that everyone can find five minutes a day to read the news and to stay up to date on some of these topics. And when there is an election, do a little homework to know who you're voting for so we can all be a little more informed when it comes to our representation in our government.

Women's Health Is Inherently Political

Jen Kamel: Yeah, because as much as we want to say "VBAC isn't political, women's healthcare isn't political." It is political because it has been made political through the function of laws. And as long as there are laws that legislate what women are and are not allowed, quote, allowed to do with their body, it is inherently political, and if you have a uterus, if you are someone who can give birth, this is something we all need to be aware of.

Thank you so much for being with us today, Megan. Thank you for so generously and courageously sharing such a private and intimate experience that you've had, not once but twice, and I hope it really opened the hearts and minds of listeners who might think, "well, I don't think anyone should ever have access to an abortion. There's no reason to have access to an abortion" because they think abortion looks a certain way.

And I hope that your story has shown them the many different faces of not only the people who have abortions, but also the circumstances surrounding those terminations, and even for children who are very much loved and wanted and desired.

Megan Kling: Thank you for having me, Jen, and thank you for giving me this opportunity to share my story here.

Our Summer Hiatus, See You In The Fall

Jen Kamel: Absolutely. And for the rest of you, typically I would say I'll see you in two weeks, but we are actually taking a hiatus for the summer, so I'll see you next time on September 5th. Now if this bums you out, no worries, 'cause guess what? You have all of the episodes that are already published, and if you're honest with yourself, have you really listened to them all? This is your time to catch up.

So catch up over the summer, I'll see you on September 5th, and remember, if you have feedback, questions, ideas for the podcast, go to vbacfacts.com/podcast and let me know. Until then, have a fantastic summer and I'll see you in the fall. Take care.