Surviving Placenta Percreta After Three Cesareans with Dawn Baranski

Dawn: He said, "There could be a one in a million chance of placental issues." And those were his exact words and that was the end of the conversation. It was done.

Jen Kamel: Do you feel like that was sufficient informed consent?

Dawn: Absolutely not. Absolutely not. I was 37. I had nine pregnancies up to this point. I had two prior C-sections. I had had two IVF cycles, both of which he knew about. I've had D&Cs. I mean, check mark. Check mark. It was all right there. I was a classic case for percreta with my third C-section.

But then you put on your advanced maternal age and then your grand multiparity. It's just that the odds were too much in my favor of having it. He should have known that.

So the fact that, you know, oh, one in a million and he literally just kind of put his hand up one in a million chance, I figured, well, I'm going to be okay. I didn't need to elaborate on that. But clearly, he wasn't up on the education, I guess, or the statistics at that time. As a medical provider, he should have known.

I heard a doctor the other day from San Antonio who said, well, we think that cesarean section poses a risk to accreta.

Jen Kamel: Think?

Dawn: It's 2025. Think.

Jen Kamel: yeah.

Dawn: I was like, oh my goodness. We have to get out there more. We got to educate women more because, unfortunately, there's still doctors out there that don't. It's really surprising. It's really unfortunate. It's sad. How many women might be alive today if they were told beforehand? It is mind blowing. Mind blowing. That patient, that woman, that family has the right to know. Preparedness once again, communication and being prepared.

I wish I would've known about accreta. I just feel like there was so much information that I was not told about me and my healthcare. So many holes. I thought I asked all the right questions and I thought that, you know, I, I did all the right things and I just wish I would've asked more questions. I wish, you know, that I was told, and it's really put a damper on trusting the medical professionals.

Jen Kamel: Hello, hello. Welcome to The VBAC Facts® Podcast. I'm Jen Kamel, VBAC Facts® founder. And since 2007, our focus has been to provide accurate and objective information about vaginal birth after cesarean and repeat cesarean to parents, professionals, policy makers and the court so all decisions can be informed, ethical, and just. I had the most fantastic summer with my family and I'm so excited to be back in this chair sharing with you the evidence on VBAC.

So today we have our interview with Dawn Baranski, who survived placenta percreta after three cesareans, but before we get into her story, I also have a few updates to share with you. First the latest research on VBAC access in the US, as well as my next speaking engagement, and some reader feedback on our episode with Dr. Stroud regarding therapeutic rest.

16% of US Counties Offer VBAC

Jen Kamel: Okay, so first up, this new research, and I was so excited to come across this because it has been quite a while since we have had good nationwide data on VBAC access in the US and yes, the CDC publishes our VBAC rate in the US every year, and we do have state level VBAC rates.

But beyond that, we really have no idea what's happening, county by county, hospital by hospital. I mean individuals have called and collected data for specific regions, but in terms of a cohesive snapshot of what VBAC access looks like in the US, we haven't had that in quite a long time.

And in fact, as far as I know the last time we had something like that, that level of data, it was back in 2013 when the International Cesarean Awareness Network called every single hospital in the US that had a labor and delivery unit and asked them, do you attend VBAC? And so they got statistics on official VBAC bans, def facto VBAC bans, and then facilities that would "allow" VBAC.

Well, now we have this new research out of the University of Massachusetts Amherst, and its findings are striking. So, and I'll go ahead and share the maps for those who are watching the YouTube show, so that way you can actually see what I'm talking about.

And if you're on my email list or follow us on social media, you know that I've already shared some of this information, but I'm going to be sharing even more during this podcast about how this study was conducted. So let me back up.

This study found that VBAC was accessible in only 16% of US counties.

For those watching the YouTube show, you'll be able to see the map that I have up right now where you'll see blue where there is an OB hospital that offers labor after Cesarean gray where there is an OB hospital, but they don't offer VBAC. White is where there is no OB hospitals and so thus VBAC is not accessible there.

Those white areas, when we talk about maternal deserts, maternal health deserts, where people do not have access to OB care, this is exactly what they're talking about. And if you see these maps, you can see not only these huge swaths of area, which are just these white counties indicating no OB access, but when we look at the white and gray counties together, that's where we have these VBAC deserts.

And so you can get a sense of how difficult it is to access care if you don't have a prior cesarean. And then how doubly difficult it is if you do, because even if you are in a county that has a hospital that offers obstetric services, those hospitals may opt out of attending VBAC.

Now, when the researchers looked just at counties that had OB hospitals. Still, only 30% of US counties with OB hospitals had access to VBAC.

So one of the things I'm always curious about when I see research like this is, how was it conducted?

Because earlier on in the year, Leapfrog published a report that said 84% of US hospitals reported VBAC was accessible there. So when I saw this study that talked about only 16% of US counties, I was like, okay, where is the disconnect here?

And in fact, when I shared these maps on social media, a lot of people came up and said, well, this isn't accurate. What are the dates of these maps? So that's an important thing to consider. So these maps are a snapshot of what VBAC access looked like in 2016 as well as 2021.

Looking at those two maps, we can see how VBAC access has shifted or not county by county. How did this study collect their data?

They went through all of this data that's collected in the US on the county level, and they looked at how many people actually had a labor after cesarean, LAC, L-A-C. How many of those labors after cesarean ended in VBAC, and the total number of people who had a prior cesarean birth who subsequently gave birth in that county.

That way they can see how many people had LACs versus scheduled an elective repeat cesarean, and then how many people had a VBAC.

What did they do with that data? They said counties with near zero LAC and or lower than expected LAC counts were considered to not have LAC access. That explains why there were a few people online on social media who were saying, well, these maps aren't accurate. Where did they get this data?

This is something to consider because not only can hospital policy change between 2021, where this most recent map illustrates VBAC access and now 2025. But also it's possible for hospitals to have one policy, say, for hospitals to ban VBAC, but to have individual providers say, well, our facility bans VBAC, but we can't ethically tell you you have no option.

We can't ethically force you to have a C-section. So if you come to this hospital and you say, I don't want a repeat C-section, you can decline that and labor after a cesarean.

This study looked at what were the actual number of people who were laboring and what were the actual number of people who had a VBAC, and then they determined whether that really equaled VBAC access or not when they were near zero LACs or lower than expected LAC counts. So that could explain why there may be facilities that quote, support VBAC, but if there were still so few people actually laboring after a cesarean in that county, it could still equate to a non-access county.

A few other findings from this study that I want to share. First of all, they looked at rural versus metro areas. What did VBAC access look like? Well, first of all, they classified 37% of US counties were considered metropolitan counties. 33% were considered non-metropolitan counties that were adjacent to metro counties, and then the remaining 30% were non-metropolitan counties that were not adjacent to metro counties.

How did these three different classifications, what did their VBAC accessibility look like? In metro areas, about 30% offered VBAC. But for non-metro counties that were adjacent to metro counties that dropped to 7.4%. And for non-metro counties that were not adjacent to metro areas, that just dropped a little bit more to 6.8%. So there really wasn't a huge difference between non-metro counties, whether they were adjacent to metropolitan areas or not.

Other key findings is that VBAC was less accessible in less affluent areas, areas with a higher black or Latino or uninsured population, or in areas that had fewer OBGYNs and fewer midwives.

I am so grateful for research like this because it confirms the lived experience of women and birthing people, and that is VBAC access is really hard.

Leapfrog Report: 84% of US Hospitals Offer VBAC

Jen Kamel: So let's contrast this against what Leapfrog reported earlier this year and when this report came out in March, I actually contacted Leapfrog because again, I was curious how was this data calculated, how was it collected? Because it seemed very high to me. So what the Leapfrog report stated was that 84% of US hospitals allows VBAC attempts.

And I was like, okay. So right now we have a 15% VBAC rate nationwide. So if 84% of hospitals were supportive of VBAC, I would think that rate would be a lot higher.

I reached out to Leapfrog and asked them, how did you collect this information? What they did is they sent out a survey to all the hospitals that had OB units across the country.

This is how they phrased the question , "Does your hospital offer patients the opportunity to attempt vaginal birth after cesarean." There were over 1700 hospitals polled and over 1400 responded, yes. That's 84%.

My next question is, who was checking that box for Leapfrog? You know what I mean? The language of the question is about as broad as possible, right? Do they offer parents the opportunity to attempt vaginal birth after cesarean? The only options to answer that question were either yes or no. And someone said Yes.

Depending on how that person receiving that survey, how they perceived that question, maybe they thought, well, we don't have a formal ban. Or maybe they thought, well, you know, someone, someone did have a VBAC here last year. Maybe they weren't really aware of how the clinicians practiced at their facility.

There is a disconnect here between not only that statistic and the nationwide data that we have about VBAC rates, which is 15%, but also that number with this latest study on VBAC access by County.

This is why anytime we find a statistic, it's important to ask: How was it generated? How was it tabulated? Who was asked the question? How was the question posed?

So wanted to share both of those resources with you, and I'll include links to not only the Leapfrog report, but this 2025 study in the show notes.

When I think about these low rates of VBAC access and all the different ways that VBAC is reported, I can see why it can be really confusing for some people when they think about, well, is VBAC really accessible in the country or not? Because if you look at the nationwide rate of 15%, you might think, well, gosh, it sounds like not many people are choosing VBAC or have access to VBAC.

But then if you look at that study from Leapfrog, and they reported 84% of hospitals said, oh yeah, people have the opportunity to attempt planned VBAC here. It might be really hard for someone to have a solid grasp of what VBAC access looks like in the US and what is really at stake when people don't have access to VBAC.

Next Speaking Engagement: Keynote at InJoy's 5th Annual (Virtual) Summit

Jen Kamel: This is why I'm so grateful for opportunities like being the keynote speaker at InJoy Education's Fifth Annual Summit later on this month. Their customers are made up of "over 15,000 institutions from health systems and hospitals, private and public healthcare organizations, government and social service agencies, military installations and programs, universities and schools, public libraries and independent educators and health professionals."

This is exactly the audience that needs to learn more about VBAC. I'm really thrilled to speak with them about first, why is it important to prevent the first cesarean? You know, I will be adding those maps from that 2025 study to my presentation to illustrate what does VBAC access look like in this country.

We'll also talk about how to prevent that first cesarean. And if someone has a cesarean, what do they need to know?

So I've only got 55 minutes and you know, I'm going to make use of every second because if we're going to change the trajectory of this train, we need everyone to work from the same playbook- and that's the playbook of research and ethics- so we can be an effective team with a common goal. And that is to ensure that everyone with a prior cesarean has access to evidence-based and respectful healthcare.

There is so much fear about VBAC from parents and professionals alike, and here is one thing I know is true: when people learn the facts, fear actually decreases. And this shift in emotional response and perspective can result in huge shifts in what informed consent conversations look like, as well as clinical care throughout the pregnancy, labor, and delivery.

So I'll include links to not only, how to register for InJoy's Fifth Annual Summit, and that's coming up on September 18th and 19th, and you can come and hear my keynote and cheer me on. But I will also include in the show notes a link of where you can learn more about booking a VBAC speaking engagement with me.

VBAC Education for Medical, Midwifery, & Nursing Students

Jen Kamel: I also want to mention the importance of VBAC education for medical, midwifery and nursing students. Because right now we have hundreds of new physicians, midwives, and nurses getting ready to enter healthcare in the next couple of years.

And how are we preparing them so they can give those with a prior cesarean accurate information and authentic support? It is one thing to share statistics. It's entirely another to feel confident, calm, and centered while doing so.

Imagine how those maps would change if everyone in healthcare had a solid understanding of not only the medical evidence, but their ethical obligation in regards to informed consent.

So if you work at one of these educational institutions that are training up the next generation of doctors, midwives, or nurses, let's talk about how to achieve this goal together. So when Amherst updates those maps in a few years, they show increasing VBAC access.

It is 100% possible and we can do that together.

Reader Feedback: Therapeutic Rest & 24 Hour Labor Limit

Jen Kamel: Okay, next up some reader feedback we got on episode 13 with Dr. Stroud specifically talking about therapeutic rest.

Remember, Dr. Stroud talked about how if someone during second stage while they're pushing, if they get tired, they employ therapeutic rest where they have an epidural and they're able to rest for some period of time. And this is what one reader said.

"Love your response. I sent this video to my husband because I was so shocked positively about even the thought of therapeutic rest. My delivery nurse told me flat out, I wasn't allowed to stop pushing once we started and that I wasn't allowed to sit up or change positions because I had to stay, quote, 'actively pushing.'

Then the doctor came in and said, "Your time is up. It's now time for a C-section." There was no distress for her or her baby. We were all exhausted. So we gave in. I told my husband, imagine if we had had someone who allowed a time of rest, recuperation and to regroup, even just the acknowledgement of how much a marathon birth is, even if we had still ended up in a C-section, at least I would've felt less like a failure, that I didn't work hard enough."

And I think this again, illustrates the incredible range in practice style we can find with different OBs. Not every OB is the same. Not every OB is going to manage the labor the same. Not every OB is going to have the same threshold where they cut a C-section. Some OBs say, "24 hours, your time is up, you're having a C-section."

Whereas other OBs will say, "Well, we've hit 24 hours, but you and your baby are fine. There's no reason why you can't keep going." So there is a huge difference. And how providers practice, and this is one of the things you need to know because relative to VBAC, there's a huge difference in how providers communicate the risks and benefits and how supportive they are. Okay, let's catch up with Dawn now.

Introducing Dawn Baranski

Jen Kamel: So I want to share a little bit with you about Dawn. So Dawn says, "I am a proud wife and mother to eight children, with a total of 10 children delivered, including two carried via gestational surrogacy. While we've lived many places over the years, I currently live in Houston, Texas where I homeschool my children. I have always been passionate about supporting and educating women. I'm always ready to offer guidance, share my journey, and provide encouragement to those in need or who are just curious. In my free time, I love dancing. It is my therapy." Welcome Dawn!

Dawn: Thank you. Thank you for having me.

Jen Kamel: I am so excited. You know, we met years ago when I spoke in Virginia, and I think at that time you were pregnant with your percreta pregnancy. Is that right?

Dawn: I had just had my son. I think it was just under a year or just at the year, mark.

Six Prior Vaginal Births, First Cesarean

Jen Kamel: I would love to start with your first birth because you have had 10 pregnancies and you've had a lot of different outcomes and a lot of different circumstances. So I want to build up to this point where you ended up developing placenta percreta, and what did your pregnancies and the decisions that were available to you, what did that look like up until that point? So what were the circumstances of your first cesarean?

Dawn: It was actually my second surrogate son,

Jen Kamel: okay.

Dawn: I was pregnant with, and he was the only one that I went into labor naturally. I think it was 37 weeks. It was great. It, it was, it was amazing. I had never been able to experience that before. I was always induced or I walked in at eight centimeters.

Everything was going great and then I wanted an epidural. So as soon as that was placed within 15, 20 minutes, his heart rate was dropping. And my doctor just said, he called it like immediately and said, "We're going to do an emergency C-section." And I looked at the mom and I'm like, "Do you mind if my husband goes with me?"

I'm terrified. My first surgery ever. I've never even had stitches. As they're rushing me down, I just see the lights in the hallway and every once in a while they'll pop up in my mind. But it was fine. We were fine. He was fine. And that was after six vaginal births.

Bait & Switch Strikes Again

Jen Kamel: After you had that surgery, at any point did someone say, well, you've had this surgery this time, you've had six prior vaginal births candidate, you are a candidate for a VBAC in the future.

Dawn: My doctor said, oh, you got this and, no, it's no worries. You know, and he delivered, oh goodness, I can't remember if he delivered child number six for me. But he did deliver my first surrogate son, so we had a three-year relationship at this point. And so he's like, yeah, we can totally do a VBAC.

And he said it doesn't look any different than if you didn't have the surgery, except, you know, if things go south, we're going to have to move quickly. I was so excited. It was like another story I can tell another woman I can relate to. And then at 38 weeks he said no, he wasn't going to do a VBAC and that I was too much of a liability.

Um, yeah, he pulled the rug out from under me. It was, I'm getting goosebumps because it was quite a shock. And there goes my second C-section. At this time I was about 35. So now we're heading into advanced maternal age. And my eighth pregnancy at this point.

Jen Kamel: So had anything changed with you in that pregnancy that would indicate

Dawn: nothing.

Jen Kamel: a C-section?

Dawn: Absolutely nothing. Nothing. Not nothing. I didn't even have elevated blood pressure. My, all my testing came back great. I don't even think I was dilated at 38 weeks at that point. It was very, very routine. And just like all my others, nothing stood out.

Jen Kamel: I think this is so important for people to hear because what I have been experiencing on social media as I engage with clinicans is this idea that if women would just find a supportive provider at the beginning of their pregnancy, then they, we wouldn't have these issues. What I have been trying to explain is that this very scenario you just described, this is what happens to many women. Nothing clinically changes. The physician just changes their mind on whether they want to support or not.

Dawn: Bait and switch.

Jen Kamel: Yeah.

Dawn: Yeah.

What the OB Advised After Two Cesareans

Jen Kamel: So he pulls the rug out from under you. Was there any discussion after that c-section about what your options were for your next pregnancies?

Dawn: The only thing he said to me after my surgery and the follow up in the hospital was that there was no windowing. My uterus looked amazing and I was clear to have another pregnancy and delivery if I so choose. And I always said that I was going to have children until the Lord says no more children.

That was what he sent me home with that in my head. No talk of a VBAC. I did ask, he said, you know, we'll just have to see when the time comes, if the time comes, what the situation looks like at that time. So

Jen Kamel: And did you believe him

Dawn: that's all he said

Jen Kamel: given how he showed up in that prior pregnancy.

Dawn: Yeah, I did. Um, I, I did not have the support at home, that I truly, truly needed to help me find another doctor. I was afraid, you know, after you just give so much trust to a doctor. I was really afraid of starting over with another one and already having had a C-section, I just assumed that that was what was going to happen every time thereafter.

And that maybe if I stayed with him, maybe I would get that VBAC. So that was my thought. I thought we had this trust in this relationship long enough and solid enough that we could do this together.

Thought About Unassisted Birth, Had 3rd Cesarean

Jen Kamel: Yeah. So when you got pregnant the next time, what was your plan and how did that play out?

Dawn: Yeah, that one was interesting. I saw him for all my prenatal appointments. But I tell you, Jen, I was going unassisted. I was not going to walk back into a hospital. I knew what I could do. I knew I could do it. I was terrified. I spent months and months and months of my pregnancy researching, watching videos, talking to midwives.

And about 36 weeks I told him, I said, oh, hey, by the way, I plan on going unassisted. I was just coming to you for prenatal care. He looked me dead in my eye and he said, you are careless. You are reckless. You are irresponsible. And he said, if anything was to happen, I can't get there to save you. You would die. Your child would die.

I was like, wow. He instilled exactly what he wanted and that was the fear. It worked and I went in again for my third C-section.

What the OB Said About Cesarean Complications

Jen Kamel: And during all these C-sections, was there any sort of conversation, given that you had expressed that you were open to as many children as the Lord gave you? Was there any sort of conversation about, okay, so this is what it means when we're having a C-section, a second C-section, a third C-section in terms of not only your future pregnancies, but also your long-term health. Was there any sort of conversation about that?

Dawn: None, none. The only thing he ever alluded to any type of complication was the more C- I don't even think he said the more C-sections. I think he was just referring to my particular case. I said, can I do a VBAC with this third one?

No, of course the answer was no. He said, you know, there, there could be a one in a million chance of placental issues. And those were his exact words and that was the end of the conversation. It was done. 'Cause at this point we were kind of bitter towards each other. That was the only thing he ever said in any terms of complications in any of our appointments.

Jen Kamel: Well, and knowing what you know now, do you feel like that was sufficient informed consent?

Dawn: Absolutely not. Absolutely not. I was 37. I had nine pregnancies up to this point. I had two prior C-sections. I had had two IVF cycles, both of which he knew about. I mean, check mark. Check mark. I was a classic case for percreta with my third C-section.

But then you put on your advanced maternal age and then your grand multiparity. It's just that the odds were too much in my favor of having it. He should have known that.

Jen Kamel: Yeah. Can you tell the audience, because everyone may not know, what is placenta percreta?

Dawn: So percreta. It is, in my case, it is when my son implanted on my C-section scar. And because it's a scar, it doesn't get sufficient blood supply. So the blood vessels will do what they need to do, grow bigger, rounder, more abundant, to be able to get enough of a blood supply and nutrients through the placenta to the baby.

The placenta never stops growing. It just continues to grow. And typically in accreta pregnancies, the placenta is larger than a normal pregnancy because it's had to sustain a life with very little nutrients and blood flow. And so it'll just keep growing and it'll just keep going to where it needs to go to get that blood flow.

In my case, it went through my uterine lining, it went through the uterine wall, it attached to my colon, my cervix, and my bladder.

Jen Kamel: Wow.

Dawn: And it was what it needed to do to keep my son alive.

Mother's Autonomy & Decision Making Scale

Jen Kamel: So I have a list of questions from the mother's autonomy and decision making scale, and this is used in research to measure the level of autonomy that mothers have during pregnancy. And I'd love to do a little experiment and ask you these, it's like six or seven questions. Would you be down for that?

Dawn: Okay. Absolutely.

Jen Kamel: So you can answer on a scale of one to six, one being completely disagree, six being completely agree.

My provider asked me how involved in decision making I wanted to be.

Dawn: One.

Jen Kamel: My providers helped me understand all the information.

Dawn: I guess a three, depending on what that information was.

Jen Kamel: I was given enough time to thoroughly consider my maternity care options.

Dawn: Yeah. Six

Jen Kamel: I was able to choose what I considered to be the best care options.

Dawn: One.

Jen Kamel: My provider respected that choice.

Dawn: One.

Why She Wanted An Unassisted Birth After Three Cesareans

Jen Kamel: Yeah. You know, when you had mentioned to me before that you had considered an unassisted birth when you were pregnant after three cesareans. How you just answered those questions, could you expand a little bit about that, why you were considering an unassisted birth? Because I think it's really important for clinicians in particular to really understand the dynamics of why someone would make that choice.

Dawn: Yeah, well, given my situation with the bait and switch already happening, the only faith I had in any human for my medical care at that point was myself. And that's really unfortunate because I trusted him. I mean, you just have that solid relationship and it was broken and it was tarnished, and I was scared and I know the benefits of a vaginal birth for the child.

I would've done anything, anything to have done that. I didn't want to, I absolutely didn't want to, but I knew the midwives wouldn't take me. I was too much of a liability that I had already knew, which I totally respect. I did not feel like I had another option.

Jen Kamel: Knowing what you know now, what do you wish your provider would've told you when he said there was a one in 1 million chance that you could have some sort of placenta issue?

Dawn: First of all, I wish he was a little more educated because at that time, in 2012, it was like one in 10,000 or something. So definitely not one in a million. So a little bit more of an educated guess would've been great. To elaborate, he knew that, I'm a numbers woman, from the very first positive blood pregnancy test, you give me those HCG levels, you give me all the little ultrasound numbers, I thrived on that.

So the fact that, you know, oh, one in a million and he literally just kind of put his hand up one in a million chance, I figured, well, I'm going to be okay. I didn't need to elaborate on that. But clearly, he wasn't up on the education, I guess, or the statistics at that time. But I go back to, I was a grand multiparity. I was advanced maternal age. I had IVF, I had prior C-sections. I've had D&Cs. It was all right there. As a medical provider, he should have known.

Jen Kamel: Yeah.

Dawn: Yeah,

Jen Kamel: At this point when he was talking about placenta issues, were you familiar with the concept of placenta accreta? Where were you in your understanding?

Dawn: Never heard of it.

Jen Kamel: Okay. And so at what point did you hear the word placenta accreta for the first time? Do you remember?

Dawn: Yeah. And it was actually my 13 week ultrasound. I knew that my placenta didn't look right. So I went home and started doing Google search and that's where it had popped up, placenta accreta. And that's how I found out about it. I was already 13 weeks pregnant with my son at the time.

Why She Choose to Birth Her Baby in Texas

Jen Kamel: So you ended up delivering him in Texas. Can you explain to the audience why you had to move from rural Virginia to Texas in order to birth your baby?

Dawn: Yeah. Ooh. If anything scarring, it was that time I had to leave them. So I was 13 weeks. There was a flag on my chart. You know, things aren't looking too favorable at this point, 19 weeks.

My doctor at that time said, you looks like you have placenta increta. It looks like it's already through the uterine lining and we can't see much of your uterine wall.

He did ask me if I wanted to terminate the pregnancy. I had said no. He said, well, you're too much of a liability and I'm not able to continue your care. You're going to have to go towards in Nova or dc to a maternal fetal medicine doctor out there, somebody in a trauma hospital that has a little more skill and the preparedness for a trauma birth.

I went out there, I was 26 weeks when I went out there the second time to do another round of testing and I met with the doctor. It was literally a five minute meeting. I did not feel comfortable.

I said, how many accreta surgeries do you do a year? And he said, two.

I said, who all is in the delivery room? At that point I knew the delivery rooms are stacked for accreta. He said four. I said, okay. Not including like nurses and stuff of that nature. I said, okay, you know, thank you for your time.

I went home, cried for days. I'm a ticking time bomb. I knew I had increta, I knew that, you know, anything could happen at any moment and now I'm without a doctor and I'm in an area that the hospital was not equipped to deal with major blood loss.

And so I got on the internet and finally I found a webpage of Texas Children's Hospital that was all dedicated to accreta. I just felt like that huge relief.

But then I had to be accepted into the team down here in Houston. They don't just take anyone. You have to have to, you know, check all their boxes. And they actually denied me.

So I called Northern Virginia again and I said, did you give all of the records? Well, come to find out, they didn't send down the most recent ultrasound findings, which were, you know, now we're heading into percreta territory.

And then I got a phone call a few days later saying that they had an appointment in Houston on April 3rd. That was two weeks. I had two weeks to fly my mother up from Florida, my husband, to get his job orders and get everything together at his work and start the 1400 miles of uncertainty and leaving my seven children not knowing if I was ever going to come back to them.

Asking my mom and looking her dead in the eye and saying, promise me if I don't make it, that you will step in, promise me. Um, yeah. And driving away from my children, oh man, that was, that was quite an ordeal for me.

But we had friends here in Houston that took me in. And a week and a half later I actually went into labor. So it was such a blessing.

Jen Kamel: Why were you going to Houston so early in your pregnancy?

Dawn: At that point I was 28 weeks when they saw me. I didn't have a medical provider. I didn't even call to schedule an appointment in Houston. Houston contacted me and said, we got your medical records. We have an appointment scheduled for you in two weeks. So it was, I was super surprised and just knowing that I had a doctor waiting for me was such a relief. Such a relief.

Jen Kamel: But it wasn't just an appointment. It sounds like you're saying goodbye to your children. You're making arrangements with your mother. It sounds like you were intending on being down there for a period of time. So when you left Virginia, was your intention to stay there in Houston until your son was delivered?

Dawn: Yes. From my research, I had figured that we would have a c-section at 34 weeks, so 28 to 34 weeks. I had stayed with some friends down here. And then my husband went back to work to be with our children.

Jen Kamel: And so you went to Houston, you had your appointment, you were staying with your friends. At what point were you admitted, because you were admitted for some period of time before your son was born, right?

Dawn: Correct. Just the day after Easter, I was kind of cramping, and I thought, well, I just better go get checked out. And sure enough, I was having contractions and that, again, never having real contractions except that one pregnancy. I was really surprised. That's never happened to me.

But I also knew that that's common with accreta pregnancies. And then they did a triage and, you know, kind of just monitored me. I was put on magnesium. The decision was to stay until delivery. And that was at 31, 31 weeks?

Birthing Her Baby via Cesarean Hysterectomy

Jen Kamel: Okay, so 31 weeks you're in the hospital. How long were you in there until he was born and what were the his birth? Because if they wanted to wait until 34 weeks, it sounds like he was born before that.

Dawn: Yes, he was, at 33 weeks is when I went into labor again. I was 33 weeks, two days. I was in the hospital for about two weeks. My husband had flown down and the next day was when I went into labor at 33 weeks, two days.

Jen Kamel: Wow.

Dawn: Yeah. Yeah.

Jen Kamel: So you went into labor and what happened?

Dawn: So my doctor, Dr. Fox, amazing, amazing doctor, she had assembled the team. It was late morning, and by four o'clock, the team was ready. I was wheeled down. I was given magnesium as well that, that day, but it didn't do much change to my contraction. So they knew it was time.

I asked my husband just before I went in to deliver, I said, can you please take a picture of me? And I smiled real big, and my son asked me yesterday, mom, why were you smiling? Weren't you scared? And I said, honey, if this is the last time anybody sees me, I wanted to make sure you kids saw me smiling, because even no matter the outcome, I still had joy. I had you.

And I was just, I was so surprised that, he knows about his birth and things of that nature. I thought it was amazing that he's so in tuned to it.

Jen Kamel: Yeah.

Dawn: So, yeah.

Jen Kamel: You're smiling in labor and they're wheeling, or at this point, are they wheeling you in the or how? How fast. What I'm trying to get at is how fast was it from the time that you started feeling those contractions to them being able to mobilize the team and be able to perform what ended up being a cesarean hysterectomy?

Dawn: Yes. So about between nine and 11 in the morning was when the contractions were picking up. I got started on magnesium. Dr. Fox came in shortly thereafter, and said, okay, we're going to assemble the team and just let 'em all know that this is probably happening today.

She said, but I'm going to go meet with them right now. I'll check back in with you. At about three o'clock, she came in, she's like, you know, we're going to do this. We're going to do this. She's like, they're not stopping, but they're not getting worse. But, you know, for the safety, it's better to be planned than emergency, she said.

But with that said, she said, this is still considered an emergency cesarean hysterectomy. By four o'clock I was downstairs. And then I woke up at close to midnight from my surgery

Jen Kamel: Wow.

Dawn: In the ICU.

Jen Kamel: about a six hour surgery, would you say?

Dawn: I read my medical report yesterday and I believe the actual surgery itself was four and a half hours. But prep to ICU was longer. Yeah.

Jen Kamel: Yeah. Well, and I think that is so critical for people to hear, because you know, a c-section, a regular old c-section does not take that much time.

But when we are talking about the sort of meticulous extraction that needs to occur when we have a placenta percreta, where you have the placenta, as you said, it was adhered to your cervix, your bladder, and your colon.

Health Issues From Her Hysterectomy

Jen Kamel: So what were the ramifications? What are the long-term effects of having placenta percreta?

Dawn: Well, it is suspected right now that I have scar tissue on my colon from the surgery. My bladder has already prolapsed. So I mean, I knew that that was, I just didn't expect it to be so soon, you know? And right now, you know, those two, as far as the accreta standpoint, those is what's I'm currently dealing with right now.

Jen Kamel: Yeah.

Dawn: Mm-hmm.

Jen Kamel: You had mentioned when you were in the hospital in Houston, there were some things that nurses did that made you smile. Can you tell me more?

Dawn: Yeah. Yeah. They had manicures. Yes, I got one. I had no idea that that was even ever an option. Early on in my stay, I was very stable. Baby was very stable. They would bring me coffee from the Starbucks down the road and allow me to sneak out and walk down the street to get my coffee or, you know, to get a fries at McDonald's. Some type of normalcy. I felt human.

And being, in my room, they were constantly coming in 'cause they're like, Dawn, you haven't left your room in a day or so, are you good? They would sit on the end of my bed and we would talk and they would come in my room if they needed to just take a breather for a second.

It just made me feel seen. I was lonely. I had no friends at the hospital. My friends, you know, they had lives. They weren't able to come see me. My family was 1400 miles away. It was very, very lonely. So those little acts of kindness, they meant so much. And I'm still friends with a nurse. Yeah, it was wonderful.

Why She Had a Cesarean Hysterectomy For Her Percreta

Jen Kamel: It occurred to me that we might have some listeners who don't understand why you needed a cesarean hysterectomy. Can you explain why it is often the mode of delivery the course of action when you have a placenta percreta?

Dawn: It's because the placenta is stuck. It is glued. It has all these million, billions of blood vessels adhered to the various levels of tissue and muscle of the uterus. It will not come out on its own. And if you disrupt the placenta and with those what we call lakes, so the big round artery type lakes, you know what, if any of those rupture, hemorrhage is within minutes.

And so a cesarean hysterectomy for cases, a lot of cases is necessary to save the lives of mother and child. And that in my case. Dr. Fox didn't do anything but cesarean hysterectomies at that point. Which I was really, really disappointed because my whole adult life was wrapped around having children and my fertility.

And I had to accept the fact and grieve the fact that that was no longer for me after this pregnancy.

Jen Kamel: Can you tell us what was the birth of your child like when you woke up in the ICU? What did you find?

Dawn: It was dimly lit and there was a nurse and Dr. Fox and I was in so much pain, so much pain. And I was reaching for Dr. Fox. And she's like, no, your husband. Your husband. And I'm like, Dr. Fox, like, I mean, just, she saved my life. I was awake. I assumed the baby was fine.

But I was awake. I just wanted my doctor at that point and was just filled with gratitude, even though I was in so much pain. And very, very, very groggy.

Jen Kamel: Did she discuss with you at all the risk of mortality with you before the surgery?

Hysterectomy Induced Early Perimenopause/Menopause

Dawn: Yeah, she did. She said that it's possible to have early onset of perimenopause and menopause, but, you know, 12 years out or whatever, which was not the case for me. I had a good four years. But she was very, very open, very knowledgeable and I did not leave that hospital wondering anything.

She was super thorough and was very much an open book about anything. And she visited like every day to every other day she would visit me and we would talk so yeah, I was very informed going forward about my future self at that point.

Jen Kamel: You had mentioned the risk of premature menopause when you have a hysterectomy, but you said you had four years. Can you tell me more what you meant by that?

Dawn: Four years after I had my son is when I started developing thyroid issues, hormone issues. My body obviously wasn't making progesterone because I didn't have a uterus and my estrogen was very, very high.

I had Hashimoto, so my thyroid and my testosterone was almost zero. Thankfully I was able to get on hormones replacement and so much better. Just, I wish I had my 12 years.

Jen Kamel: Yeah.

Dawn: I'm thankful for science for that.

Hormone Replacement Therapy During Perimenopause

Jen Kamel: How old were you when you first started having perimenopausal symptoms?

Dawn: oh, I was about 42, 43.

Jen Kamel: What impact did you find the had for you?

Dawn: I finally felt, I felt physically felt good. But there's always something missing. And I don't have a cycle, so I don't know, am I hormonal or, you know, 'cause my hormones are imbalanced, or am I at that part in my cycle? Would I even have a cycle?

It's, it's a guessing game and it's always here, it's always with me.

That reminder that something is definitely missing. Makes it very challenging.

How Recovery From a Cesarean Hysterectomy is Different Than a Cesarean

Jen Kamel: Can you tell us about your recovery from your cesarean hysterectomy and did it differ from your other cesarean recoveries?

Dawn: Yes. Um. It was long. It was very, very long. It was very painful. Thankfully I got discharged after four days, but I stayed in the NICU full time with my son for 19 days. I didn't go anywhere, didn't really do anything. I just laid around with him and tried to heal as much as possible.

After 19 days, we took that long arduous journey back to Virginia with a little one in toe and it, it took, it, I'm still healing. I feel, not so much physically now, but it's still a journey. It's still here and it's not going away, but we're making the best of it.

Jen Kamel: Do you want to share what that healing looks like for you and what your journey has been like?

Dawn: The first five, six years. It was hard. My marriage fell apart. Counseling lots and lots of counseling. I actually went to counseling before my surgery because I knew that I had to have a new life afterwards. I had to have a new identity afterwards. It was hard. There's nobody that understood.

I was very clingy to my son I didn't want him outta my sight. I was so afraid that I would lose that one last piece of who I was. But through, counseling, I went into the gym. I stopped all of my kids' sports and extracurricular activities. I put them all back in school and I went to the gym and I was given myself one year, 365 days, for me. I had to rediscover who I was.

And I did. I started my bucket list, started checking those off. My marriage came back together. It's great. It's fantastic. But it wasn't without meds. And depression is something I never thought that I would grapple with at this stage in life. But the meds have helped me considerably.

Jen Kamel: What do you want to share with other women who've had a cesarean hysterectomy about the process, the recovery, emotionally and physically?

Dawn: Emotionally. Yeah, it's going to be rough. Support. I had very little support. I cannot tell you how important, especially if somebody is lying in a hospital bed right now, awaiting that delivery and the uncertainty. It is dark. It is scary. But there's me, there's you, there's other women out there that have this and have done this and have pushed through. And we have, we have each other.

And I can only encourage women. Don't be afraid to reach out. Don't be afraid to reach out. I know Dr. Fox is very like, good about, like, I even told her there's ever a woman that needs somebody to talk to, give her my information. I want to be there, I want to help.

Nobody should have to wonder alone, because you're going to wonder, you're going to ask the what ifs. And yeah it's nice to be able to have somebody who's been on the other side and just to be there and share that journey.

What Hysterectomy Has To Do With Vaginal Prolapse & Rectocele

Jen Kamel: Do you want to talk anymore about the health implications of your hysterectomy?

Dawn: Well, I didn't say about my vaginal prolapse, my rectocele, the whole thing gamut. I do think that's important. Absolutely.

Jen Kamel: Well, can you share with people, so what does that mean and what does that have to do with your hysterectomy?

Dawn: So because now I no longer have the uterus that keeps things in place, and it's such a tiny organ, but it's so important besides just pregnancy, things start to collapse in on themselves.

And I recently was having issues and I, and they've been progressing over the years, so I knew something, something's not right.

So about a month and a half ago I went to a pelvic specialist. And I had already done pelvic therapy. It didn't help. And I was diagnosed with a bladder and vaginal prolapse and a rectocele. So that's where the colon pushes into the vagina, into the vaginal wall. And so that's another surgery that is in my near future.

I hope it's the last. But yeah, that tiny little uterus. Yeah.

Jen Kamel: Well, and I think there's this idea that once you're done having children a hysterectomy is no big deal. Like what other function does it serve? So I think it's really important for people to hear that even when you are done having kids, the uterus plays a structural role in the architecture of the abdominal cavity. It's like Jenga, right? You take out that one key piece and the rest of the structure is not as stable as it once was.

Dawn: Exactly. Definitely. If it's not medically necessary, I encourage women, please keep it. Please keep it. Yeah, because that's the last thing that you want to have surgery on. All those really important parts and pieces. And then it's another major risk, you know, and another major surgery. So definitely.

Advice For Those Who Need A Cesarean Hysterectomy

Jen Kamel: And when your team was preparing you for your cesarean hysterectomy, what are the things that they told you that you would like the audience to know, especially if someone needs a cesarean hysterectomy and they're listening to you now.

Dawn: Several of the doctors that came in and talked to me over the course of the two weeks I was in the hospital is I had done a good job. I had done a good job. I, whether I delivered one or I delivered nine, I did a good job and my race with fertility was over My, my relationship with fertility was over and I had done a good job and I want to encourage every woman out there, you've done a great job and if this is your time for a cesarean hysterectomy, you have done a fantastic job and it's okay. Yeah.

"I Wouldn't Have Showed Up For My Scheduled C-Section"

Jen Kamel: When you were pregnant after one or two C-sections, why was the option of VBAC important to you then? And does that differ at all from when you're looking back in time and you're thinking about why VBAC is important to you now?

Dawn: I had vaginal births. Vaginal birth is something I did six times. It was so important, whether it's one C-section, two C-section, or three C-sections. I knew that I could do it.

I knew I could do it, and it was so important to me to be able to prove to myself and aside from that, just in a health standpoint, physical health standpoint, it's just what I feel like my body needed to do.

Knowing what I know now, I absolutely would've fought. I would've fought so hard. I wouldn't have showed up for my scheduled C-section. I would've waited as long as it took to have my child naturally.

And those are, you know, things I'll never get back. And those are things that I can only encourage women if they're in that position. One C-section, two, don't give up the fight. Don't roll over. There's another doctor out there, there's another sister out there that can help support you if you don't have it. That's what I wish I would've had, and that's what I wish I would've known. Looking back. Yeah.

Advice For Those Pregnant After One Cesarean

Jen Kamel: Based on your experience, what are the biggest pieces of advice that you would give someone who's pregnant after one cesarean when their risks are the lowest?

Dawn: If VBAC is what they want, then just to fight for it. It's never too late to change doctors. Nobody should have to put their own healthcare in their own hands and take possibly unnecessary risks. But fight, you know, you more than anyone, you know what's best for you and, but just because you have one c-section, it doesn't mean accreta is not knocking at the door.

It is very unpredictable and even without a c-section, it still happens and it's very unpredictable. So keep fighting for that VBAC if you're able to have it.

Advice For Those Pregnant After Two Cesareans

Jen Kamel: Do you have any different advice if someone has two prior cesareans?

Dawn: Same thing. Same thing. And I mean, keep going. You know, I mean, we're at a medical advancement of time where, we can do this, we can do this, and there's no reason why one C-section, two C-section, three C-section, four C-section, we have to roll over and have another c-section. There's plans in place. There's, you know, preparedness is the best way of preventing catastrophe is communication and plans. And it's totally possible.

"There Was So Much Information That I Was Not Told"

Jen Kamel: Is there anything you wish you knew when you were pregnant after one or two C-sections that you know now?

Dawn: I wish I would've known about accreta. I just feel like there was so much information that I was not told about me and my healthcare. So many holes. I thought I asked all the right questions and I thought that, you know, I, I did all the right things and I just wish I would've asked more questions. I wish, you know, that I was told, and it's really put a damper on trusting the medical professionals.

Physician Dismisses Future Risks as "Theoretical"

Jen Kamel: You know, it's interesting that you say that because I interaction with a physician on TikTok because we're now on TikTok. And you know, the beauty of TikTok is that people who are normally not in our audience are served up our videos. And apparently a lot of medical professionals, physicians, and nurses are seeing the videos. And one of them had a very interesting comment, and when he said this, I thought, I'm going to run this by Dawn and see what she says.

He was focusing on the risks of the current pregnancy. And I was saying, in order to make an informed decision, people really need to understand not only the risks of the current pregnancy, but how those decisions now, impact risks in future pregnancies. His reply was, why we talking about what he called theoretical risks?

And it really just locked into place for me this myopic focus on the current pregnancy and ignoring anything else that happens outside of it. And that might be how that individual provider would assess risk for themselves, but I think it's really important to give people the information because someone like you, who wanted more children. So what do you say to a provider who sort of dismisses the risks of accreta under the umbrella of, well, it's theoretical. They haven't gotten pregnant again yet, so that's something that we really don't need to be talking about.

Dawn: Well, I can tell you that I'm not going to go to my doctor and say, Hey, you know, I'm going to plan to have a child. We're going to try to get pregnant tonight, and then have the pregnancy, and then all of a sudden, all this wealth of information starts coming out that you really should have known.

Preparedness once again, communication and being prepared. Every doctor. Every doctor should always, always, always, even if it's the smallest, that patient, that woman, that family has the right to know. And how many women might be alive today if they were told beforehand? It is mind blowing. Mind blowing. I mean, I heard a doctor the other day from San Antonio who said, well, we think that cesarean section poses a risk to accreta.

Jen Kamel: Think?

Dawn: It's 2025. Think.

Jen Kamel: yeah.

Dawn: I was like, oh my goodness. We have to get out there more. We got to educate women more because, unfortunately, there's still doctors out there that don't. It's really surprising. It's really unfortunate. It's sad.

"VBAC Poses Unnecessary Risk We Can Avoid Through C-Sections"

Jen Kamel: Well, and another comment I got from a healthcare provider was, you know, I've been at a VBAC where there was a uterine rupture and the baby died and that is an unnecessary risk and we can avoid that through C-sections. And I said, well, it is equally tragic when a woman dies from accreta.

Dawn: Yeah.

Jen Kamel: It is equally tragic, and

Dawn: It sure is.

Jen Kamel: and there is this idea that if we just avoid this uterine rupture risk with a repeat cesarean, now everyone is quote "safe." And like you just said, that doctor said they "think" there's a connection. There is a well established connection, and that right there is the challenge. And so we have these clinicians who say, trust your doctor, trust your doctor, trust your doctor. But doctors are saying they "think" the association is there. Doctors are saying they don't need to inform people on risks of multiple cesarean.

This is why I developed VBAC Facts®. There is so much information that is missing in that informed consent process. Informed consent is often very short. It is inadequate and it often mirrors what the provider wants.

So if they want you to have a repeat C-section, they're not going to tell you about the risks of accreta because that might interfere with your quote "choice" to have an elective repeat cesarean.

There is an inherent conflict of interest there, when your provider a very strong feeling about two options, available to you: VBAC or repeat cesarean. And they both have risks and benefits, which people have the right to ascertain.

Dawn: I love your passion. I love your passion. We need to spread it far and wide.

"It's Hard 'Cause I Don't Trust Them"

Jen Kamel: Well, that is my goal. So how do your cesareans impact how you engage with healthcare now? Are you a different person when you show up at a doctor appointment as opposed to when you had no prior cesareans and you were pregnant again?

Dawn: Yeah, absolutely. I ask questions and then I ask some questions. And then I come home and I do my own research. I take an evaluation of myself and my physical evaluation. Yeah. It's a lot of work. I mean just like this upcoming, surgery with my prolapses. It's hard.

It's hard 'cause I don't trust them. But I'm going to keep looking and we're going to keep moving forward and I'm going to find that one just like that needle in the haystack I found with Texas Children and Dr. Fox and make a very informed decision.

Jen Kamel: The lack of trust is something that clinicians need to hear because I don't think they hear that from their patients. 'cause I think it's pretty unlikely a patient is going to tell a doctor head on, the way that you have interacted with me has resulted in me losing trust for not only you, but the medical establishment.

And I say this, Dawn, because you are not the first person to talk about how a lack of trust has developed since your C-section, because of how you were treated.

Dawn: That's sad. That's sad. They're our first line, right? They are our first line. They are who we should be able to trust to have our best interest, and they're failing us all the time. And if we don't do something, I fear, we will start taking medical issues into our own hands.

And things don't always work out in the best case scenario. But at this point, what choices do we have? And it's really unfortunate that our backs are up against the wall when it comes to our trusting in our doctors.

Jen Kamel: Yeah.

Dawn: It's really unfortunate.

"We Don't Attend VBAC Because We Can Get Sued"

Jen Kamel: One of the other themes that were coming up when I was talking with these clinicians about VBAC is they were saying, well, look, we can get sued. So, this is what we're going to recommend because we're not willing to put ourselves at risk for potential litigation by attending VBAC. So we're going to opt out of that.

And then my question was, okay, so if all of the physicians in your community all share the same level of discomfort and you all opt out, where does that leave that woman who was pregnant after a C-section and who wants a VBAC? Do you have any thoughts about that

Dawn: it's hard. Yeah.

Jen Kamel: conversation and about OBs saying, we don't attend VBAC because we're worried about legal liability.

Dawn: You know, what are we signing when we go into an OB office for the first time? What are we signing? When I was in c-section pregnancy two and three, I even asked my doctor, I said, can I sign a consent? Can I sign something to say that you're not liable If my uterus was to rupture and something was to happen? He said, no.

I feel like that's my right, that's my choice. If I'm willing, my body, my life, my child, if I'm willing to risk all of that, shouldn't I have the option to do so? And to be able to say, I relieve you of any medical liability, within reason, because I choose to try to have a VBAC at least try. At least try, right? Try.

Usually there's signs that things are going south pretty quickly and it's the 21st century, we shouldn't still be doing this. And it's, again, it goes back to us having to take the healthcare into our own hands. Very much like I was doing.

Jen Kamel: Well, and I would argue that you did have your life threatened with placenta percreta, and that was per choices

Dawn: Yeah.

Jen Kamel: that were not yours to make. Those were choices that other people

Dawn: Yeah.

Jen Kamel: imposed upon you by denying you the option of VBAC and saying repeat C-section, that's the safest thing to do right now. You were denied the opportunity to really make an informed choice.

You talked about putting your life on the line for a VBAC, I would assert that your life was put on the line but for repeat C-sections because you were in a situation of higher risk of mortality and morbidity because you had placenta percreta and that developed because VBAC was denied to you. And you were assured these C-sections were the safest thing even though you were denied the opportunity to really make an informed choice and evaluate the risks and benefits of VBAC versus repeat cesarean for yourself.

Dawn: Yes. And it gives me goosebumps because that is the reoccurring mantra in my head. And when I think about it, and I think about those three repeat c-sections, it's hard not to be bitter. But shoot, if I was just given the opportunity to try, at least my first one, I had six vaginal births under my belt.

I had classic textbook pregnancies. Besides my age and the amount of children I had before the C-section, that's the only things, two strikes against me. So, yeah, I truly believe if I was able to have a VBAC I wouldn't be dealing with the problems that I'm dealing with today, and life would've been much, much, much different, if I would've been able to have a voice and a choice.

What She Would Say To The OB Who Performed Her First Cesarean

Jen Kamel: If you could go back and talk to that OB who performed your first C-section, is there anything you would like to say to him?

Dawn: It's funny you say that, 'cause I looked him up earlier this year and I was going to, I was going to make an appointment, I was going to speak my peace, but he retired last year.

If I could go back and say, you're not taking this from me. You're not taking it from me. This is my right. This is what I'm going to do. And that's mine. Yeah, that's what I would say. I mean, if I could, I would ask a lot more questions, I would've definitely elaborate. But if I had a chance to see him. He took a lot from me and my family for sure.

What Dawn Wants You To Know

Jen Kamel: What's the most important thing you want people, whether that's parents or professionals, to take away from your story today?

Dawn: Allow her to have a voice, allow her to have an opinion, allow her the opportunity to do what she thinks she's capable of, between an informed, educated mother and a physician that's a powerhouse. If they would just work together, there's so much that could be accomplished and risks would be so much lower. The morbidity would be lower, and so would the mortality, all of that.

We could work together and we're just as scared as they are of getting sued. We have a little more to lose: a life or a child. Just let her have a voice. She's a woman. She has that right. She deserves it. That's what I would encourage for sure.

How Her Births Have Changed Her

Jen Kamel: How have your births changed you?

Dawn: Hmm. Well, besides the trust factor, I don't know. That's a good question. I've never really thought about it. I'm still in the process of finding who I am after all this time, even 11 years later. I take a lot more into my own hands for sure and always back up education, back up what a doctor might say and see life a little bit differently.

You know, seeing it in the eyes of my children and knowing that I'm here and I made it through and I have some more opportunities and for that I'm super grateful.

Her Advice: "My Doctor Won't Let Me Have a VBAC"

Jen Kamel: What's your advice to people who say, my doctor won't let me have a VBAC?

Dawn: Find another one. Find some friends, find some online friends, find some women who have fought that fight and have come out and have won. Find them. Cling to them. Find another doctor. But just keep going.

Jen Kamel: Thank you so much, Dawn, for being here with us today and sharing your story.

Dawn: Of course. Thank you. Appreciate for the opportunity.

Jen Kamel: Absolutely. Until time, I'm Jen Kamel with VBAC Facts®, and don't forget what we're about. Since 2007 our objective has been to provide accurate information on vaginal birth after cesarean and repeat cesarean to parents, professionals, policymakers, and the court so all decisions can be informed, ethical, and just. I'll see you again in two weeks. Take care.