A Psychologist’s Journey Navigating a Hospital VBAC Ban with Dr. Denise Jaimes-Villanueva PsyD

Denise Jaimes-Villanueva: Also, my nurse midwife had said, well, at least next time, you know that you can schedule a C section. I was just like so heartbroken.

Jen Kamel: that was, yeah, that was the suggestion.

Denise Jaimes-Villanueva: yeah, so unheard, you know, and

Jen Kamel: Yeah.

Denise Jaimes-Villanueva: unvalidated. So knowing most likely if I wanted to stay in Santa Barbara what would have to happen with the VBAC ban at the hospital, like, I didn't even really want to think about having another baby. And I was definitely like I had to go through some emotional healing, you know around my birth experience with, with Koa.

Welcome Denise!

Jen Kamel: Hello, hello, and welcome to The VBAC Facts® Podcast. I'm Jen Kamel VBAC Facts® founder. Today we have with us Denise Jaimes-Villanueva. She's going to share with us her experience of navigating a VBAC ban in Santa Barbara, California. Denise is the mother of two boys, ages 12 and nine. She was born in Santa Barbara and raised in Carpenteria. She is proud of her Mexican heritage. She spent a couple of years living on Maui. Her husband, boys, and her love to travel, go to sporting events, amusement parks, be in nature, and spend time with friends and family. She is a bilingual psychologist working with children, adolescents, couples, and families. She has a number of specialties that she is passionate about, including working with the Latinx community. often incorporating cultural concepts into treatment as a way to heal and grow. These concepts include connecting to our traditions and values, as well as learning how intergenerational trauma and ancestral wisdom impact us, supporting those that have suffered from childhood trauma and domestic violence, and working with young children and their caregivers to increase attachment. Denise, thank you so much for joining us.

Denise Jaimes-Villanueva: Thank you for having me. So glad to be here.

Her First Birth

Jen Kamel: I would love to start with your first birth. Can you kind of walk us through what happened in that pregnancy and labor?

Denise Jaimes-Villanueva: We were very excited obviously like many new parents are first time parents You know, we were also a one income family at that time. I was finishing up school and my husband was the only income earner at that time. So, you know, kind of trying to do things in a responsible way too.

I always knew like I was drawn to, you know, home births and natural births and that's what I wanted. However, after discussing with my husband about the finances and his concerns our agreed upon plan was, let's do a hospital birth this time. It's going to be basically be covered by insurance. And if all goes well, you know, maybe the next birth, we can try to have a home birth and we'll know what to expect and what it's going to be like.

And so disappointingly, disappointingly, I agreed. I said, okay, that's fine. But we ,still went ahead and enrolled ourselves in natural birthing classes, and still we're hoping to go along that path in the hospital. And again, cutting corners financially we didn't hire an experienced doula to support us as, again, I had initially wanted, but my friend had given natural birth herself a couple of times and had also supported one of her friends have a natural birth, and she was willing to take some doula classes. And so I said, okay, well, that sounds good enough. You know, that sounds like a good plan.

I was just surrounding myself, like I said, with that natural birthing class. And I was doing a prenatal yoga class with the very knowledgeable yoga instructor on all things, natural birthing. So we had a lot, I had a lot of support around that. I thought it would be easy We were excited and I went into labor on my due date and but it was very early labor, you know probably. In reality, like Braxton Hicks contractions

Jen Kamel: and

Denise Jaimes-Villanueva: I just didn't know it. And

Jen Kamel: So at the time you were thinking, this is it,

Denise Jaimes-Villanueva: Yeah, I did.

Jen Kamel: you're like probably not. Yeah.

Denise Jaimes-Villanueva: for sure. The time, you know, and I was also a part of a medical team of GYNs. So I never, I didn't know who I was going to get, but I knew that the person I preferred was on call that night. So it was just like, yes. This is it, you know, and

Jen Kamel: Yeah. Yeah.

Denise Jaimes-Villanueva: I I want. And so we went to the hospital, my friend slash doula with us. And way too early. there was like, no dilating and like too much time in between contractions. And so we said, okay, we'll go home. And so we went home and I did my best to just rest. And the next day it seemed to, you know, we, we were trying to time the contractions and it seemed like they were closer.

And, so we made that call again to let's get to the hospital and they said, well, it's not really dilating. If anything, it's very

Jen Kamel: Yeah. Hmm.

Denise Jaimes-Villanueva: can probably just go back home.

And at that point I was just like, I just want to stay here, you know, I don't want to keep coming back and forth. They allowed me to do so. And so I just thought I was going to labor calmly and, you know, just progress naturally there in the hospital. And in hindsight, again, I had wished I had gone home to do that because then, like, I just started feeling lots of pressure, you know, nothing's happening and, you know, we can get the ball rolling doing these interventions and I hadn't didn't want to do any medical interventions. And so I held off for a long time.

After consulting with a doula that had visited, I think the prenatal l interventions have worked to get it going for some people. And so I was just like, well, it's worth a try, you know, let's try one thing, and so the one that I had chosen to do first, I think was the Pitocin to just get the contractions a little stronger.

Jen Kamel: And how long had you been in labor, or how long had it been since the first time you went to the hospital? Just to get an idea of how much time had elapsed here.

Denise Jaimes-Villanueva: I want to say two days

Jen Kamel: Oh my

Denise Jaimes-Villanueva: I,

Jen Kamel: Yeah.

Denise Jaimes-Villanueva: so I, the first day I went was on the 13th then he wasn't born until the 16th,

Jen Kamel: Wow. So were you able, yeah, were you able to sleep during those, during those two days? Or were you really kind of like excited and up and,

Denise Jaimes-Villanueva: I think a little bit of both. Yeah, I

Jen Kamel: yeah,

Denise Jaimes-Villanueva: more, more excited and up than restful for sure.

Jen Kamel: yeah,

Denise Jaimes-Villanueva: And

Jen Kamel: yeah,

Denise Jaimes-Villanueva: you know, in and out of the bathtub, trying to relax and, you know, just getting really discouraged and concerned about how long it was taking and, so that's when I, I thought to myself, like, yeah, maybe just let's get these contractions pumped up and see if this baby wants to move around. And so that was intense, you know, without having any pain medication or anything else. But I, felt good to me, you know, it felt like my body was working and that something was happening with the contractions. And still no progression with dilation.

Jen Kamel: And how dilated were you when you, when they started the Pitocin, do you recall?

Denise Jaimes-Villanueva: I don't, I don't remember. Yeah. I want to say maybe two, three, something like that. It was

Jen Kamel: Okay. Yeah,

Denise Jaimes-Villanueva: And then, yeah, the pain got really intense and, you know, because I wasn't progressing. I was getting exhausted. And so, you know, it was very hard decision to get the epidural because, you know, I had also heard that all these things can slow labor down, you know, they certainly help, but they can also slow labor down. And I was so worried about that because it had already been so long and, but I was exhausted and I needed some rest.

So I made that challenging and difficult decision to get the epidural and, you know, I guess one person was only allowed in there. And I decided to have my mom with me. She's very comforting. And so

Jen Kamel: she

Denise Jaimes-Villanueva: helped me while I got the epidural then it was kind of nice to get some rest, you know, I was able to, to relax and rest. And I thought maybe that's just what I need just to be patient and chill out. And, you know, this baby will come soon.

Jen Kamel: yeah, yeah,

Denise Jaimes-Villanueva: one of the nurses had given us maybe false hope and said that I had dilated. I was maybe at a four and a half or five or something like that. And I was like, yay, it's happening at least, you know, slowly. But, and then the next doctor on call came in and he said, Oh, they were being generous. You were only a two or something like that. Or,

Jen Kamel: uh, Hmm,

Denise Jaimes-Villanueva: I don't know. So that was very disappointing.

And at that point too, little later on in his shift, he, I think he had mentioned that he was concerned about my baby's heart rate. I can't remember if it was a little too fast or a little slow. Maybe a little slow. And that it seemed that there was also some meconium as well.

Jen Kamel: Was your water broken at that point?

Denise Jaimes-Villanueva: No, it hadn't.

Jen Kamel: Oh, so he was just saying he was worried about meconium not that he actually saw meconium.

Denise Jaimes-Villanueva: Yeah. Cause my water

Jen Kamel: Okay.

Denise Jaimes-Villanueva: That was another, I did actually They did break my water as well. You reminded me of that was another intervention that I was like,

Jen Kamel: Okay,

Denise Jaimes-Villanueva: know, hesitant. I had so wanted that natural, you know, experience of that happening. And so maybe, maybe he did actually see it because they did break my water at one point as well.

Jen Kamel: okay. I know it's funny how once you start thinking about something, things that you never even thought about or had thought you'd forgotten of, start coming up.

Denise Jaimes-Villanueva: I know. I knew it was going to cry today, but I

Jen Kamel: Oh,

Denise Jaimes-Villanueva: going to be about that, but I just remember that feeling very, you know, out of

Interventions, that one felt like so violating, you know, it's just like, I don't know why necessarily, but like I said, I think I had so anticipated, you know, you see in the movies, like, Oh my God, my water broke.

out before he was ready with that. Intervention, so that one was maybe that's why I blocked it out. don't know. So, yeah, he, he, the doctor was concerned about his heart rate, the meconium. And then also, I think my strength, you know, had been so long and I wasn't dilating it.

And then he also had finally let me know that my baby was sunny side up as well. So that was for hard back labor and it was challenging overall. And so you know, Eli was starting to get, my husband was starting to get concerned once he heard the doctor's concern about our baby.

And, and so you know, it had been so long and so I kind of just decided, okay, you know, let's, let's have the C section, you know, totally like not what I wanted, but I'm so tired and so like, can't wait to meet this baby. 

We were wheeled in pretty quickly after I made the decision finally to get in there and everyone was pretty friendly for the most part I think. And Eli was able to proclaim it. Or claim the sex of the baby. The doctor, you know, showed him, what do we have here, dad? And so that was exciting. I still wanted that initial, like bonding and skin on skin with him. And instead he was, you know, taken away and I didn't get to see him for, it seemed like forever, but I don't think it was that long.

So yeah, that's kind of things that happened around his birth and what made it challenging. I kind of think not having experience support, you know, like I had originally wanted a midwife and an experienced doula. I think that maybe that could have helped. I think having the medical interventions maybe perhaps slowed things down as well. Going into early, being too excited and impatient and yeah, all those things.

Navigating VBAC Bans

Jen Kamel: So, after your C section, was a next child, your next pregnancy, even on your mind, at what point did you start thinking about what you wanted for your next pregnancy?

Denise Jaimes-Villanueva: I mean, yeah, definitely. I mean, my husband and I had always wanted multiple children. And so I think that's, we, we knew we wanted another baby before we had our first even, you know and before we were pregnant with our first. You know, as was said, you know, the next time we could try a home birth, you know, after this hospital. But right after I had him, I mean, I definitely went into I mean, some depression, you know, and had some hard time. And so with that, it wasn't necessarily on my mind in the hospital.

Also, my nurse midwife had said, well, at least next time, you know that you can schedule a C section. I was just like so heartbroken.

Jen Kamel: that was, yeah, that was the suggestion.

Denise Jaimes-Villanueva: yeah, so unheard, you know, and

Jen Kamel: Yeah.

Denise Jaimes-Villanueva: unvalidated. So knowing most likely if I wanted to stay in Santa Barbara what would have to happen, you know, because that's what everyone was, the, with the VBAC ban at the hospital, like, I didn't even really want to think about having another baby.

And I was definitely was. definitely Like I had to go through some emotional healing, you know around my birth experience with, with Koa. don't know when, how much longer I had more of a solid, you know, heart feeling like, yeah, I'm ready to have another baby. they're two and a half years apart. So I think it was always in VBAC of my mind. Like I knew it, but I just wasn't ready to like, think about it right after I had Koa. But when I did, when we were trying for my, our second child, I want to say maybe a year and a half later or something, I knew that I wanted to a different experience and I was a little bit more confident and firm with Eli, you know, that I want to have midwives you know, I want to labor at home. I want to have a VBAC and he was supportive of, of all that. And I had, I forgot to mention that I had Koa about a month before I had him, I defended my dissertation and I got my doctorate degree.

Jen Kamel: Oh my goodness.

Denise Jaimes-Villanueva: When I got pregnant with my second child, I wasn't licensed yet and I was just like, yes, my boys are my motivation.

No, I didn't know as he was a boy at the time, but you know, my babies are my motivation. My motivation, you know, I got my doctorate with Koa and I'm going to get licensed before I have my second child. But I had to stop studying because I put all my energy, like emotional energy

Jen Kamel: Hmm.

Denise Jaimes-Villanueva: time into pursuing a VBAC. At the time it really felt like I was reinventing the wheel. Like I felt

Jen Kamel: Yeah.

Denise Jaimes-Villanueva: alone.

Jen Kamel: Yeah. Mm hmm.

Denise Jaimes-Villanueva: I didn't know you existed, at that time and and, or maybe I did, I don't remember. 

Jen Kamel: I know, I know, I know we met one time at one of the Santa Barbara, the ICAN of Santa Barbara panels, and, and I can't remember when that was. I should have looked up when that was. I think that was maybe the first, it was, I think it was the first panel I did with them. But yeah, I don't know what year that was. I think, I think you already had your second child by that point.

Denise Jaimes-Villanueva: yeah, I think I did

Jen Kamel: Yeah.

Denise Jaimes-Villanueva: At that time when I was pregnant with my second child, the ICAN Santa Barbara chapter didn't exist, you know, I think there had been one in Ventura that I reached out to, but they had recently dismantled. And so, did find some midwives though, that were very knowledgeable and supportive.

But because of the politics, it wasn't even necessarily a recommendation. It was like necessary for them to have a doctor backup, you know, for hospital birth. And I don't even think that home birth was an option for me at that time either. Like, I think they were willing to have me labor at home and then transfer me to the hospital with a VBAC friendly doctor.

Jen Kamel: And can you, can I just jump in and can you share what are the politics of VBAC at that time in Santa Barbara? Because I think what has happened in Santa Barbara is so similar to what happens to other communities around the country. And so can you just like lay out what were the VBAC options in Santa Barbara?

Denise Jaimes-Villanueva: To my knowledge, there weren't any really because the only hospital that we have had a VBAC ban. So, yeah. I was told that, you know, it's my right to say that I was, didn't want any interventions. I didn't want a C section, but that it would be, it would be very challenging. I'd be up against people that were very judgmental and that would try to pressure me.

And so that didn't sound easy or fun. And that was a bummer because my husband and I and our firstborn were all born at that hospital. And, you know, it would have been so beautiful to be able to, you know, have that kind of tradition or experience with our second and last baby, too.

Was willing to kind of do what it took to do what my body and heart wanted. So it seemed like there wasn't really anybody in Santa Barbara that was willing to to get on board with that necessarily.

Jen Kamel: Yeah. My understanding is that Cottage Hospital is a level one trauma center. So that's where gunshot victims would go. That's where car accidents would go. I mean, that is the hospital for the community. So for them not to offer VBAC, what did that mean in terms of how far you would need to travel if you wanted to birth in a hospital?

Denise Jaimes-Villanueva: Yeah, so that would be in Ventura County and even then they were kind of going through some changes and you know, who is VBAC friendly, who wasn't and who wanted to be and who couldn't and so that, I mean. More of a guaranteed place would be like LA, like UCLA, where people have had some success stories.

And I have one of my best friends and cousins that lives right down the street from the Ventura hospital. And so I decided to labor house and be transferred to, which at the time was going to be St. John's hospital cause that's where my the VBAC friendly doctor I decided to go with, worked out of, he also worked out of the community hospital in Ventura. But prior to that, I was going to be working with a lovely doctor who was mostly working out of Santa Paula. So that was quite a trek for me too. When I first started seeing her.

Jen Kamel: And what are all the distances here? So people understand, like, what's the difference from Santa Barbara to Ventura or if you wanted to go to UCLA or going up to Santa Paula? How many miles and how long did it take you to travel when you were looking at your options?

Denise Jaimes-Villanueva: Yeah. I can't remember exactly, exactly, but from Santa Barbara to Ventura is the closest. And probably like anywhere between a half an hour to 40 minutes. Santa Paula is pretty way out there, I would say about a good hour maybe, to get there. And, then UCLA, I mean, that one's more tricky cause there's so much traffic all the time. So that's, was also intimidating, you know, thinking about being in labor and in traffic. It could be a couple of hours away or more.

Jen Kamel: And versus Cottage, how far was Cottage from your house?

Denise Jaimes-Villanueva: Like 10 minutes, if even that, yeah.

Jen Kamel: So you were going up to this doctor in Santa Paula.

Denise Jaimes-Villanueva: yeah. And she was on board. She was totally VBAC friendliest of all the friendly, you know, just wanted to support me and was happy to do so. And uh, shortly after seeing her, she was pressured by the board of her hospital and told that if she, I don't know exactly, but that she would basically lose her license if they found that she was backing up any midwives are, you know, offering VBAC services. So,

Jen Kamel: Yeah.

Denise Jaimes-Villanueva: I totally get that she didn't want to lose what she had worked so hard for and what she doing, what she loved and is great at you know for this political wall that she was against. So she regretfully you know, had to end providing services to me.

Hiring Midwives to Labor at Home

Denise Jaimes-Villanueva: And then I was starting from like all over again, you know, trying to find somebody and at the time I did have my midwives, you know, so seeing them regularly but they needed that doctor backup. And so I was still open to trying to have a home birth. And I was able to get in touch with Dr. Fischbein. He was one of the only doctors that was or OBGYNs was doing home births. And, and so I was excited when I made, know, connection with him and we spoke and he was willing to support me, he didn't already have, you know patients or many at that time of my due date.

And so I was really excited when I went back to tell my midwives, you know, I found my doctor, you know, and I don't know if it was because it wasn't a option with my midwives. I can't remember, but, the head midwife had recommended I seek somebody else that works in a hospital so she recommended somebody in Ventura, this doctor that was at St. John's and that the community hospital.

And so he also, you know, was available. And because that's who my midwife had, wanted me to go with, I decided, okay, well, I'll go with him then, I guess. Thinking it was going to be again, kind of, kind of easy. I mean, he was VBAC friendly and supportive. He knew that I wanted to have VBAC. And so he was, you know, secretively open to that idea.

So my plan was, like I said, to labor at my cousin's house. St. John's a little bit further away from my cousin's house. Cause I think it's in Oxnard. My cousin lives in Ventura, which her house is just down the street from community and county hospital. They're both kind of in the same vicinity. And St. John's was a little bit further away.

Yeah, so with my second child, I went into labor on the fourth of May. I remember getting to my cousin's house and, you know, getting comfortable. She sent her kids off and it was one of her son's birthday on May the 4th. And so they were celebrating in the morning, she has a beautiful, cozy home I was comfortable there in the backyard, in the bathtub, on the yoga ball showering off and on and my midwives were checking on me and at one point, there was a team of three, at one point, one of them said, okay, well, I think we're getting ready for hospital transfer, you know, it's happening.

And I was like, okay. So we called our doctor to give him a heads up. And he's just said he was supporting another first time mom at the community hospital just down the street from my cousins. And he wasn't going to be able to be at St. John's, which is where he was willing to support my VBAC. I guess community wasn't VBAC friendly or even though he was working there, was still a little confused by that. But so he gave us our options, which were to get in the car, go to UCLA or,

Jen Kamel: oh, my goodness.

Denise Jaimes-Villanueva: Or go to the county hospital, which had been known to be VBAC friendly in the past, which is where my initial doctor was working. And so it was scary. You know, I didn't want to be in traffic going to UCLA when I was almost ready to transfer to the hospital. You know, it's so unpredictable.

Jen Kamel: I think, I think people outside of Southern California need to understand what does it mean to drive from Ventura to UCLA. I mean, you could easily be driving for 3 or 4 hours because if it's if it's during traffic. And you're stuck. You are stuck on the freeway. That is not ideal if you are in labor.

Denise Jaimes-Villanueva: Yeah.

Jen Kamel: it's, it's a big deal. It's not just like, let me drive 30 miles down the road and I go to another hospital. I mean, it's, it's almost like you're driving to Las Vegas. It's so far because it takes so long with traffic. So your options were to roll the dice and get in the car and sit for possibly three or four hours going to UCLA or,

Denise Jaimes-Villanueva: Yeah, I'd just go like five minutes down the street, if even that, to Ventura County Hospital, to the ER. And so I decided to do that. That sounded more safe to me, you know

Jen Kamel: okay.

Denise Jaimes-Villanueva: not as stressful.

Jen Kamel: Because this was, let me just back up, because this was always the plan, right? It was always the plan to labor at home with the midwives and then go to the hospital for the actual delivery.

Denise Jaimes-Villanueva: Yeah.

Jen Kamel: Okay. Okay. So it's not like there was anything wrong. You were just transferring because this was the plan.

Denise Jaimes-Villanueva: Yeah, yeah, I just

Jen Kamel: Okay.

Denise Jaimes-Villanueva: with a doctor I knew or, you know, who I knew was supportive and,

Jen Kamel: Yes. I see. Okay. Wow. Oh

Denise Jaimes-Villanueva: it was explained to me, but I still don't really recall why my midwives weren't Maybe it was a political thing too. Why they weren't willing to help me have a home birth and be transferred to hospital if needed, you know but yeah, that was always kind of that was always, what they had said was necessary if I wanted to have them.

So yeah, we went in the morning to the county hospital and my midwife had said, I'm no longer able to say I'm your midwife. I have to, you know, you could say I'm your doula. So I got there and I told them I'm in labor and I wanted to be checked in to my baby. And so they told me where, you know, I had to do all the check in paperwork and stuff, but then they told me where to go.

And so walked there and met with the staff up at the labor and delivery area and told them, I want to have a VBAC. I'm here to have a VBAC and was met with judgmental faces and judgmental words and them telling me that that's not legal and they're not allowed to do that and that I need to have a C section and who, who's my doctor.

I just was trying to be as strong as I could and very just speak in general terms. I didn't feel like I needed to give them my whole backstory. I just left it at, I know my rights and I want to try to have a natural birth. And so they reluctantly, you know, took me to my room and luckily doctor that was on call was my original doctor that I was seeing in Santa Paula. And

um,

Jen Kamel: my gosh. What luck was that?

Denise Jaimes-Villanueva: Yeah. You know and she knew my situation and so she was just like, okay, best of luck, labor on and I'll come check

Jen Kamel: Yeah.

Denise Jaimes-Villanueva: know, periodically. You know, the county hospital is pretty small. I was sharing a bathroom with another birthing mom next door. And so I could hear her on the other side, laboring. Then, you know, I was going through my deal with my husband. And again, it was another long l abor Um

Jen Kamel: Um,oh.

Denise Jaimes-Villanueva: days, you know, days on end. I could feel my baby like with the contractions, like it felt like he was trying to swim down or kick his way down. I swear I could feel that. And my doctor came in and she let me know that her shift was going to be ending soon and that she can see that I was not progressing. If anything, I was regressing. I was getting very swollen and for some reason I wasn't dilating and she said, I'm happy to support you and be the one to sorry, do your C section.

And, or, you're welcome to continue laboring. Your health is fine. The baby seems to be ok. You know, So you can continue. I just don't know who is going to be here and because I had grown at one point to trust her and appreciate her I decided that I wanted her to do my c section.

So again, not an easy decision to make, but I was glad that it was with her. It was a different experience, you know, I felt like at least I had tried giving myself and my baby that. Experience of a trial of labor. For some reason, you know, my body just wasn't cooperating and it was okay to get some help.

And and so, yeah, we had C section and had asked her if Eli could again, you know, name the sex of the baby when the baby came out. And she was so excited. Oh, she had, she did it. She's like, Oh my gosh, I'm sorry! But it was fine. It was, we were just happy. And we had another

Jen Kamel: Yeah,

Denise Jaimes-Villanueva: It wasn't as I wasn't as sad, I don't think, you know, after, because I felt like did. What was within my control for the most part, and I tried my best, and at least I got to have that trial of labor and not just

Jen Kamel: yeah,

Denise Jaimes-Villanueva: have the scheduled C section that I didn't want. So, so yeah, that was, I had Ezi, my second, and I think I was at the hospital for maybe a day or two. My wound, my C section wound had opened at one point while I was.

Jen Kamel: oh boy,

Denise Jaimes-Villanueva: Yeah, and so that was a little distressing but I had a very kind nurse that helped, you know, stop the bleeding and other than that, I think things went pretty well. I was also really sick when I had Ezi with a.

Jen Kamel: oh,

Denise Jaimes-Villanueva: normally cough and cold and one of the nurses had suggested I wear a mask and I'm like, I don't want my baby to know me with a mask on, you know, but I did just thinking I was protecting him from whatever I had.

Jen Kamel: Yeah.

The Toll of Hostile Climate VBAC Planning

Denise Jaimes-Villanueva: I was hard on myself you know with all stages of preg well not necessarily all well a little bit of pregnancy with Ezi my second born because I felt like with, with Koa, I was so already bonded with him when he was in my belly and just like, you know, with Ezi I almost like had to like tune out that I was pregnant cause I was invested in having the VBAC and and learning about it and how to pursue it and just like all these things that I had to do and not just enjoy my pregnancy with him.

That was also a hard part to like I didn't even really know that it was happening and um necessarily, because I was just so busy but I had some therapy at that time and um it was a really beautiful experience.

So that was one thing that was challenging too, just feeling like I was missing out on just enjoying the, you know, like being pregnant with Koa was one of the most incredible times I've ever experienced in life, you know, it was like the healthiest, I felt great and just so happy. And with Ezzie, I didn't have that in the first I don't know, five months or so until I started to have more of a plan and idea of what was happening that I felt like, okay, now I can just like, try to bond with my baby and be connected.

Lessons She Learned

Jen Kamel: Yeah, you know, one of the things that we talked about before we hit record is that you said how people can hear your story and learn what not to do. Do you want to share some of the things that you've learned and some of the ways that people can learn from your story? And, you know, we all, we all can look back on choices that we made and things that we did and realize if I would have known this then, then I would have done this.

Denise Jaimes-Villanueva: definitely. And I know. You know, part of my healing process has been to just accept that you also don't know what you don't know until you're there, you

Jen Kamel: Um,

Denise Jaimes-Villanueva: It's hard to just say like, you know, at first I thought like, oh, I'm going to teach people what not to do but you're not going to know until you're there, like what you're going to do or say, or

Jen Kamel: yeah.

Denise Jaimes-Villanueva: and respond. But you know, some of the things that I would like people to take away is to listen to your heart and intuition and, know, like, I love my husband and I know he had the best of intentions as did my friend acting doula, you know with my first baby.

But I really wanted midwives. I really wanted a doula. I really wanted a home birth and I let concerns of other people, you know, get in my head and, and my hope for, okay, maybe the second one, I can have that experience, you know, like feeling like, I don't know, just going with that and not going with my gut. I think that's something that I would like people take away is just to listen to what their heart says, you know and have good knowledgeable experience support as well.

Be patient. I know it's exciting especially with your first. Um yeah so just be patient. Don't necessarily rush to the hospital cause you are so excited to see your baby You know, my friend, acting doula, she couldn't necessarily check my dilation and say ok you are ready to go to the hospital! My husband couldn't you know, so, all I knew is what I thought that I felt ready. So you know, it would have been great to have somebody at my house be like, no, you got to chill here. Stay home, walk around.

So yeah, I just think having supportive, knowledgeable providers in your corner would be really helpful. If somebody's pursuing a VBAC, I mean, I found you definitely to be super helpful, supportive, I mean, your classes and our conversations. And I'm so glad that you have this podcast now and you're going to be reaching out to even more people. And so, I mean, you just having so much support for us you know, facts, you know, cause you know, we get family members who are scared or hear stories. You know, it's illegal or, you know, it's

Jen Kamel: Yeah.

Denise Jaimes-Villanueva: and, then, you know, somebody like yourself has done the research it's also good to have that to increase your confidence and.

Jen Kamel: Yeah.

Yeah. Well, and I want to mention when you talk about having a knowledgeable team on your side, you know, one thing, one type of birth professional people can hire is a montrese. And montreses are often labor and delivery nurses, not necessarily so, who can check your dilation at home. So that way, before you head off to the hospital, if you're planning a hospital birth, you can have someone at your home with you who can help make sure that, you know, you're not heading off to the hospital and you're three centimeters.

Denise Jaimes-Villanueva: Yeah.

Jen Kamel: Yeah, and I think, you know, the feedback that you got from your family is so common. It's like, well, the only reason why the hospital would ban VBAC is because it's so dangerous. Right?

Denise Jaimes-Villanueva: Yeah.

Jen Kamel: that can be a really huge thing to overcome. So how did the politics of VBAC impact your births?

Denise Jaimes-Villanueva: Well, like I said, you know, I wasn't able to birth at the hospital that I had. I mean, of course my first was to be at birth at home, but at the hospital I would have preferred, you know, I wasn't able to do that.

Jen Kamel: Yeah,

Denise Jaimes-Villanueva: have been rejected or would have had to put up quite a fight. And you know, I mean, my family, yes, they had those concerns, not everybody did, but You know, they did have those concerns. And so having to, and I'm really close and I love my family, you know and so having to kind of come into contact with their fear, you know, not let it get to me,

Jen Kamel: yeah,

Denise Jaimes-Villanueva: you know, and feel like, I mean, I wanted to educate them, but I didn't necessarily have all the knowledge either to change their about it. But in the end, I mean, everyone was pretty supportive, but it was a little bit challenging, like I said, to kind of keep that healthy boundary of not letting

Jen Kamel: yeah,

Denise Jaimes-Villanueva: influence me and my desire and my plan.

Jen Kamel: yeah.

Denise Jaimes-Villanueva: know, hiring my midwives, you know, they were faced with politics of their own apparently, you know, they needed me to be transferred to a hospital, not just, have a home birth. And so that affected me too, because ideally I would have liked to have experienced a home birth. But I had to get on board with, okay, if I want midwives, you know, who are going to be helping me have a natural birth, at least my vaginal birth then I'll have to get on board and go to a hospital, even though I don't want to.

Jen Kamel: So, if you knew then what you know now, would you have made different choices?

Denise Jaimes-Villanueva: Yeah, I think so. I would have probably gone with the Santa Barbara Birth Center initially, and not looked back and not looked at other options. I mean, we had interviewed a couple of OB GYNs here in Santa Barbara. And I ended up going with a former midwife who was in private practice now she was working, she had been working with the medical team at a clinic here in Santa Barbara, and because she was a midwife nurse practitioner, I decided, okay, at least, you know, yeah, she's on this, you know team now this clinic, but at least she has that background, you know, so I'm going to go with her.

The other person I had interviewed you know, being a first time parent and, you know, hearing about making your birth plan and stuff. I, I just asked her a simple question, you know, what are your thoughts or how do you work around, you know, your patient's birth plans? And her response just rubbed me the wrong way. Well, I wouldn't go to your job and tell you how to do your job. I was just like, okay, well, doesn't sound very supportive or validating. So, and this is a person I had heard of that was really great and supportive, you know,

Jen Kamel: Yeah.

Denise Jaimes-Villanueva: but I think I was going to say no to everybody because. I also knew that I wanted that home birth. In my mind, I was like, no one's going to be good enough unless they're a midwife, you know?

Jen Kamel: Yeah.

Denise Jaimes-Villanueva: so, so

Jen Kamel: Yeah.

Denise Jaimes-Villanueva: I feel like I would have gone with the birth center as my team to support me and just dealt with the finances.

Jen Kamel: Yeah. Yeah.

Denise Jaimes-Villanueva: I'm sure I could have gotten my husband on board if I had tried harder. It was weird though you know I mean, I'm sure a lot of people could relate. At the time I wasn't working and so I felt like, you know, even though he was never withholding of money, like he was, you know, the only earner. And so I felt this, this internal, just like guilt like I don't have as much freedom to do what I want because you know I'm not contributing financially and he never really said that, you know, but it's just like something within myself. So again, in hindsight, I just

Jen Kamel: Yeah.

Denise Jaimes-Villanueva: wish I had worked that out and just been little bit like, no, this is my body and this is what my body is telling me I want. And we'll figure it out, you know,

Jen Kamel: Yeah. I think the thing that's so tough in that first pregnancy is that there's so much unknown, but I don't think a lot of people realize at the time how much how that first pregnancy plays out, impacts your future births. And it's really tough because if you have that c section, now suddenly all these hospitals that would have been available to you to birth at, are now suddenly unavailable to you. And how to plan your birth becomes substantially more complicated, or it can be, depending on what's available in your community.

So what would be your biggest tips to someone who wants to plan a VBAC?

Denise Jaimes-Villanueva: I mean, definitely, get to know you and read, read, read all your stuff and take your courses. And you know definitely have somebody in their corner, their provider that is knowledgeable as well about VBAC and supportive of it. Obviously it wasn't possible for me. I mean, I'm happy that I had the trial of labor for sure. But you know, there are so many success stories. It is possible. You don't have to feel like you're reinventing the wheel or that, you know,

Jen Kamel: Yeah

Denise Jaimes-Villanueva: something dangerous or like, you know, unheard of. It happens and it's possible and it's safe. So I just want people to know that there's a lot of support out there and that it's possible.

Jen Kamel: Y yeah. What do you wish you knew when you were pregnant after your first cesarean?

Denise Jaimes-Villanueva: A lot of things were out of my control again, you know, I wish I would have known

Jen Kamel: Yeah.

Denise Jaimes-Villanueva: you know, the first doctor that I had as my backup, that she was going to be shortly told after that you know, that you're not going to be able to do this, you're going to get fired I mean, have still loved to have gone with her, but if I had known I was going to have to like, start over again

Jen Kamel: Yeah.

Denise Jaimes-Villanueva: I probably would have not gone with her. Had I known that my doctor, you was going to be busy at another hospital that he couldn't support me at, like that was never told to me. You know, it

Jen Kamel: Yeah.

Denise Jaimes-Villanueva: I'll meet you at St. John's. I'll be there. You got this. It was never like, there might be a possibility that I might be at another hospital and can't get to you. To my recollection anyway, maybe if it did, it just was so out of my mind. Like that's not going to happen. Had I known all that was going to possibly going to happen, I don't know, I probably would have been willing to just go down to LA, and not even mess with all these obstacles in way here. have just been like, if UCLA is my best bet, then let's just go there.

And, you know, yes, it would be nice to have had, you know, my baby at the hospital I was born at and my husband and his brother or down the street from my, you know, cousins's home where I was able to labor at, you know, it would have been easy you know, but obviously none of that happened.

So, yeah, I just, wish I would have just gone with something that was kind of more of a guarantee, you know, that I wouldn't have to go in and fight for my rights be judged, I don't know, it could have happened there too, I don't know I've heard more success stories of people who have gone down there. So I probably could have avoided all of these obstacles and gone down there. Or again, like, I don't know why necessarily my midwives didn't want me to go with Dr. Fischbein, but you know, kind of wish I would have gone with that gut feel of him try to help me with a home birth. I don't know. Maybe I would be transferred to the hospital because my body didn't cooperate. But again, I don't know why my body didn't cooperate. Maybe it was these external things. Like the interventions I had with Koa or, you know, just not being in a very supportive environment while I was laboring,

Jen Kamel: Yeah,

Denise Jaimes-Villanueva: you know, I ended up being in one, but yeah at first, like having to be faced with that fear,

Jen Kamel: yeah,

Denise Jaimes-Villanueva: I don't know, I'll never know, I guess.

Processing the Impact of Those Births

Jen Kamel: yeah. So how do your two births impact you today, if at all?

Denise Jaimes-Villanueva: I read, when I read that question, I was like, kind of like all the other ones, I was just like, oh, yeah, I can answer that without crying. I'm fine. But then when I got to that one, I was just like, I'm obviously still very emotional, you know.

I don't know if that goes away. I mean, but I mean, I still feel like I probably have a lot of healing. I need to do around births because I'm just emotional. I kind of think like when it's one of those things, like if it's not on my mind, Hey, I'm not thinking about it. I feel like I'm fine, you know, but. And when I'm asked to appear on a podcast, which I'm happy to be doing, you know, and, but I'm having to kind of revisit it all, it's like comes back up.

Jen Kamel: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah

Denise Jaimes-Villanueva: wellbeing and my mental health. I think it impacts my relationship with my boys I think. But it's more like my stuff that I need to work out, I think. Because I am critical of myself still, sometimes. And I wonder, did I ruin my boys, did I harm them? Did my choices, are they going to have long term on my children? You know beautiful, healthy boys, challenging boys. I'm often asking myself that, you know?

My oldest, he has a hard time sometimes transitioning and being out and doing new things, you know? He so had a hard time coming out of me and really, a lot of his personality to his birth experience.

I had to learn that I don't like being late, but I am often times rushing. I know that when I'm rushing him it doesn't help things, it makes things more challenging and I think back to his birth. Like, I rushed him, I was at the hospital too early, had my water broke and he wasn't ready

Now, I don't know, I'm a little more patient, let him go through his process and, and stuff is ready. But before I would kind of feel like I was doing that in real life, you know you know, let's go, let's go, we gotta go. And, and it would just get him anxious and worked up and wouldn't help things.

So yeah, I would say that's how it impacts me, my critic, myself. and my mental and emotional health. But I've also you know, through support from people like you and people from ICAN that I've met and through therapy I've learned to make peace with it and accept it.

There was someone who came up to me, I think it was after a panel I was on you know, I still had so much guilt after I had with Koa. I was forcing him, I should have been more patient. She had helped me have like a different perspective on it and how. It was maybe even just like relieving for both of us, you know, and it was okay to get that that help, you know?

So rather than being so hard on myself and seeing like I did something wrong or bad or I didn't do it the right way. Like seeing his C section as it, it was okay. And we just both needed a little bit of help.

Trusting Providers is Still Hard

Denise Jaimes-Villanueva: My medical care, now, even though I'm not having babies, I still don't want to see a gynecologist. I don't know. I just feel like, I wasn't able to be supported by anybody here, you know, in my time of pregnancies for what I wanted. And so that just put a sour taste in my mouth and I just haven't really wanted to go back for any treatment. I do have, you know, my primary care physician who is a woman. And so I do get, you know, my annual stuff done. I'm taking care of myself, but yeah, I just have bitterness in my heart, I think, towards some of the medical providers.

Jen Kamel: Yeah.

Denise Jaimes-Villanueva: of course I would go if I needed to, you know. And, you know, in the beginning too, when the hospital had their VBAC ban. I was pretty active ICAN at that time and, I participated in protests, you know, and planned the panels and, so yeah, it's impacted me in that way too, just to kind of fire me up and, you know, want to make a change and a difference.

I haven't been as active since having my boys and since starting my career and stuff. It did impact me in that way as well, just want to make a difference and do something.

Jen Kamel: Yeah, I've heard that Cottage has since reversed their VBAC ban. Are you aware of that? Do you have any thoughts about that? Have you seen that maybe making a difference in terms of VBAC access in your community?

Denise Jaimes-Villanueva: Mm mm. Like I said, I am a little bit out of touch with the birthing community now, but I did see that they made that claim. I don't know, I want to say maybe a year or more ago, and it was almost like, I have to see it to believe it kind of things. Cause they still were like, yes, we're going to reverse this ban, but we need to get the proper staff in line still, you know,

Jen Kamel: Mm mm.

Denise Jaimes-Villanueva: that. And so I don't know if they have all their ducks in a row now they're totally open and able to do it, you know or not. But I think it's awesome if it is, if people are able to go and pursue VBAC. I think it's great. I think it's a long coming. And it also angers me a little bit too, you know, like it happened too late, you know, for me anyway, you know, so sometimes I get that side of it too, just like, you know, again, like it would have been so awesome to my babies at the same hospital dad and I were born at, you know, just like that,

Jen Kamel: Yeah.

Denise Jaimes-Villanueva: so, it's such a cool story. And so there's that part that's a little bitter, but then again, just like super stoked for like the parents of today, you know, that get to go there and be supported hopefully. Have that opportunity that they have a right to.

Her Message for Parents

Jen Kamel: Yeah. What's the most important thing that you want parents to hear from your story?

Denise Jaimes-Villanueva: That's a good question. It's a hard one. I think being like, open to having important conversations with one another about around childbirth. I know people do but for the partner that isn't pregnant, to just really validate what the pregnant partner is experiencing and wanting be open to it. Do a little work around, you know, even if it's not feeling right for you as a partner. I think it's worth doing some work around, like, well, let's explore it at least, and let's see,

Jen Kamel: Yeah.

Denise Jaimes-Villanueva: what would it entail, and just kind of waver up those pros and cons. And just to make sure that the pregnant one of the two feels heard, supported.

I mean, people give birth every day and I think that we take it for granted and we think people do this every day, you know, my body's going to know what to do. That could be true in many cases where it's easy and then in some cases it's not so clear cut. Not so clear cut. And so and so it would be a good investment for your emotional wellbeing and your whole journey, I think your process of birth and pregnancy.

Her Message to Clinicians

Jen Kamel: And when you think about birth professionals hearing your story, is there anything you would like them to take away from your experience?

Denise Jaimes-Villanueva: I know that they're very knowledgeable about their field. They see it day in and day out. You know, they're the experts, they have lots of experience. And you know, I know some of them are able to do this, but just remember that we're all individual people.

We all have different journeys and, you know, different hopes so just to really hone into us and not think about like the big picture of, know, this is what I do for a living, I know what I'm doing kind of thing. And I don't know, like cookie cutter us, you know, like everyone's different.

And just to really take time to hear your patients and let them be seen and feel heard, validated. Even if it's something that, we don't agree with, you know, just be open to hearing them and not shutting them down.

I know they're busy and I know they have their agendas and procedures and all that, but just remember this is not their, you know, hundredth time, just like it's yours. You know, this is maybe their first or second, and each birth could be really different. And just to be more empathetic, maybe and open hearted.

Her Message to Policymakers

Jen Kamel: And I also think about policymakers who could be hearing your story. Is there anything you would like to say or anything you'd like policymakers to know relative to midwifery and VBAC or hospital VBAC policies?

Denise Jaimes-Villanueva: Um, Yeah, I mean, I think it's important to really have a lot of knowledge around this topic. You have so many helpful facts that a lot of policymakers don't necessarily know, you know, and so I just really hope that they would take the time to educate themselves about what surrounds midwifery and what surrounds VBACs and take that into consideration when they are deciding on policies to implement or to change. As opposed to maybe, well, this has been around for a long time, or, you know this obviously had a purpose so let's just go along with it.

So much talk about reproductive rights right now in our country and abortion and how we should have the right to make our own decisions. And I think the same could be said about VBACs.

So I guess that's another desire of mine to have this be just as loud and important, you know, cause it does entail our bodies and our rights.

Jen Kamel: Well, I agree with you. And that is why I continue to do this work. And that's why I launched this podcast was to reach a new audience. So that way we can have more people, whether they are parents, professionals, policymakers, or the court be knowledgeable about this topic. So when it comes up for them, when they're presented with the opportunity to share an opinion or provide information, they're in a well informed position to do so.

Denise Jaimes-Villanueva: Yeah, I agree.

Jen Kamel: Yeah. Is there anything else you'd like to share today?

Denise Jaimes-Villanueva: I thought it was interesting that this was a day that we are doing this podcast because all my memories on my social media came up was a women's march that I participated in when

Jen Kamel: Oh, well,

Denise Jaimes-Villanueva: the first time. I, you know, I stood along with another mother and Anastasia Stone as she spoke out against, you know, the rights of women who are being violated here in our own town, here in Santa Barbara, those that want to pursue VBAC at that time when there was a ban. So I just wanted to say that was kind of fitting to be this day that you and I are

Jen Kamel: Yeah. And the fight continues.

Denise Jaimes-Villanueva: Yeah, it does.

Jen Kamel: Yeah. Thank you so much for sharing your story with us today, Denise.

Denise Jaimes-Villanueva: Of course. Thank you for your time and for everything that you do.

Jen Kamel: Absolutely. Absolutely. And until next time, I'm Jen Kamel. This is the VBAC Facts® Podcast. Be well and take care.

Denise Jaimes-Villanueva: Bye.